Info Why are tables not taught in OW classes anymore?

[Jake 10]

Show me how I would reference the tables and put pressure groups in for these two dives I did on June 23. There divers were done using EANx 32. Both were NDL dives--no required decompression.

Dive One
Maximum depth = 126 feet
Total dive time = 83 minutes

Surface Interval = 91 minutes

Dive Two
Maximum DEpth = 88 feet
Total dive time = 92 minutes

We are taking OW not advance or super hero’s at 130 feet,

Are you logging the "PG" in a log?... go ahead give it a try and surprise me.

 

[davehicks]

Getting off-topic, but this is an interesting discussion, and I may make another thread

Re "riding the NDL". On vacation, I had one shot at diving the Sea Tiger, and I wanted to extend my time on it as much as possible, so I rode the NDL to zero (didnt help that my operator couldnt get me NItrox).

As lowwall mentions, I think alot of us "riding the NDL" aren't trying to brag, we just want to extend our precious vacation dives.

My question, which I will pose on another thread is what folks think about me setting my computer to allow me as much time as possible at depth (Deep 6 Excursion has conservative settings, as well as GF settings). I only do 2 dives per day, and will have at most 4 dives for an entire vacation (my wife doesnt dive).

I feel like since I wont be accumulating over many dives, I have more leeway to "ride the NDL" to the last minute on that one dive I do at depth. Will ask in another thread.

Nothing wrong with "riding the line" at all. If you are using a computer with GF, this is how you build in some conservative values. The Deep 6 computer you have uses GF presets of 35/75, 40/85, 45/95. Either of the first 2 options are relatively conservative and give you plenty of buffer even if you ride the line.

 

[lexvil]

So I would think the answer would be to focus heavily on a team diving mentality (for which I am still learning and not great at) or redundant air. The surface still wasn't really the solution. There's too much that can go wrong in that ascent. Panic creeps in, you hold your breath, and things don't turn out good as in your example.

It's like landing a plane where the engine died.. can people do it, sure, but you only get one chance. With diving you can mitigate that need to land right away and take your time to make the appropriate ascent. Heck with the right mentality / training he should have been able to make a complete SS / deco stop and all ended well. The training or his own complacency failed him. The surface is a dangerous option from 60' for most people.

A little OT, but my little bubbles worth

To much “team” mentality already, it’s great if it works out but ultimately you may be the only one there when something fails.

 

[rob.mwpropane]

To much “team” mentality already, it’s great if it works out but ultimately you may be the only one there when something fails.

Oh I agree.. I dive doubles 99% of the time and dive to get tf away from people!

 

[Seaweed Doc]

So I would think the answer would be to focus heavily on a team diving mentality (for which I am still learning and not great at) or redundant air. The surface still wasn't really the solution. There's too much that can go wrong in that ascent. Panic creeps in, you hold your breath, and things don't turn out good as in your example.

It's like landing a plane where the engine died.. can people do it, sure, but you only get one chance. With diving you can mitigate that need to land right away and take your time to make the appropriate ascent. Heck with the right mentality / training he should have been able to make a complete SS / deco stop and all ended well. The training or his own complacency failed him. The surface is a dangerous option from 60' for most people.

A little OT, but my little bubbles worth

Yeah, we left the topic long ago.

I think redundancy is a nice idea, but unlikely for most divers. I won't take a pony bottle or use doubles on routine teaching dives. The team approach is the better solution. But that involves a shared-air ascent which would need to be learned.

And I'm really not sure how to teach "don't panic." I've had some folks panic that I fully expected them to. I've had others do it out of the blue, when they appeared calm and collected in every situation I've put them in until they weren't.

 

[USdiver1]

OOA ascents are skills that still need to be taught to students. Scuba diving is kind of like motorcycle riding in that the two most dangerous times are early on when you know you know nothing, and later on when you think you know everything.

In my decades of diving I have had only one OOA situation - 100% my fault, it was in my spearo days and I went too far mentally into the ambush my prey thing, so much so that I sucked my tank dry at 60 - 70 fsw. Kept my regulator in my mouth, did the AHHH thing and about half way up sucked again real hard and got a half breath that sustained me to the surface.

Bought myself a ScubaPro MkVII 'Honker' first stage to use while spear fishing after that and never had another incident.

 

[rob.mwpropane]

Yeah, we left the topic long ago.

I think redundancy is a nice idea, but unlikely for most divers. I won't take a pony bottle or use doubles on routine teaching dives. The team approach is the better solution. But that involves a shared-air ascent which would need to be learned.

And I'm really not sure how to teach "don't panic." I've had some folks panic that I fully expected them to. I've had others do it out of the blue, when they appeared calm and collected in every situation I've put them in until they weren't.

I watched 2 guy in the St. Lawrence in awe if how in sync they were. They'd been diving together for years. Never bumped each other.. they just had "it" whatever it is. Just 2 recreational divers in single 100's. When I think of team diving I picture those 2. Very few and far between though.

 

[Bigbella]

Show me how I would reference the tables and put pressure groups in for these two dives I did on June 23. There divers were done using EANx 32. Both were NDL dives--no required decompression.

Dive One
Maximum depth = 126 feet
Total dive time = 83 minutes

Surface Interval = 91 minutes

Dive Two
Maximum depth = 88 feet
Total dive time = 92 minutes

Those profiles are all well and good and your point is well taken -- but they really have little to do with some college kids (in the case of my niece) or even the lion's share of recreational divers, taking their first open-water classes, where they will be diving exclusively on air and limited to about 20 meters.

The number of those who will ever be using trimix or some closed circuit, sub-basement setting on their Garmin or Shearwater would probably fall somewhere within the single percentile range; and learning a bit more about the use and the Navy underpinnings of dive tables and their later role in computer development still has its merits; and I am pleased that it continues being taught at university.

While I have used both air and "mixed gasses" for years, easily eighty percent of those dives, since, say, 2019, could still fall somewhere within the old NAUI air or EAN table tolerances . . .

 

[Centrals]

Table is still being taught(optional).
No wonder some operators insist on computer for all divers while others don't.
I learnt it in the beginning and must have destroyed one or may be two SWATCH for the bother. And eventually settled on dc after a yr.
But it is still a practical redundancy device if you have an issue with your only dc.
I dive with two simple dc and a third one as stand by.
From my own experiences I have seen many divers simply did not have a clue how to use his/her own dc properly.
I don't miss the table/wheel but do believe it still has practical value ie. plan the dive and dive the plan.

 

[VikingDives]

The whole idea of teaching tables or not seems trivial. If you have smart students, you can teach the table in 3 minutes or less, for one dive. then 3-4 minutes to show a repetative dive

If you're ever in Albuquerque, I'm extending an open invitation for you to come teach dive tables in under 10 minutes.

I'm not trying to be an ass, and I'm sure you think you can do that, but you are underestimating the time it takes to teach them, because you haven't ever taught them, by a factor of probably 20.

When I taught them, initially, I followed our shop's standard powerpoint, and taught them at the end of the course. That was super painful for everyone, because it was day 2 of classroom and no one wanted to be there, and I was presenting the densest, most hard to grok, material.

Later I switched to teaching the tables first. The students didn't understand anything (they'd retained about 10% of what they'd read in PADI's book). I'd preface the beginning of the course with a disclaimer: "I'm going to teach you things that you probably aren't going to understand, or see the reason for, right now. But, by tomorrow, you'll see why we are doing this."

That improved test performance (teaching RDP upfront) but it didn't improve retention. I was solely teaching to the test, and I was re-teaching that material, albeit faster, two weeks later because it had all been lost.