DIR- GUE Why are non-GUE divers so interested in what GUE does?

[mariosx]

What about if the student expressed an interest in occasionally doing some underwater dancing? Would the GUE instructor explain why this goes against the entire spirit of the class?

Only if the dancing is macho enough for GUE standards.

Seriously though, if you do not decide to start dancing all over the place during a class, or in a silty cave endagering others, or in any other way adding substancial risk, the most likely senario is the instructor to join you. What's the purpose of diving if not for having fun? You could just stay in bed if your main goal in life is your horizontal trim. GUE does not remove fun from the activity, quite the opposite, it truly enhances it.

 

[ginti]

...

Hi @Wibble , all your doubts are more than legitimate, but we're going quite off topic here. If you open a thread about it, I will be happy to answer the questions I can answer (not all of them, I am not that experienced yet )

 

[sourdough]

It's pretty interesting to me to see many people being super interested in what GUE does.

They're probably waiting for more bloopers

 

[Wibble]

I am sorry for your bad experience during the class. I guess you somehow end up to less than "perfect" GUE instructor that behaved in a very anti-intellectual way.


I have been there and it's totally understandable. I even mentioned this scenario in my answer. When it comes to me, in such case I may perform some solo dives but at the same time I will actively search for buddies.


If the instructor was teaching you in a dogmatic way, I think the major responsibility goes to the instructor.

I am an extremely newbie diver with around 70 dives and only the last 30 being with GUE. I only have a strong rec pass from Fundies (doubles etc), so I cannot answer everything, but I am confident that the large large majority of GUE divers with the required level could clarify all of them.
Many standards might not make sense at some levels because they have utility in the next levels. The idea is that no (or minimal) changes on configuration and procedures will be needed in the next levels but they will be simply add on the current skillset of the diver. For me at least, an awesome concept that ensures minimal effort on addressing problems under stress with minimal thinking.
Just to try to give my newbie takes:

I am not aware on such case and I have find for myself the "DIR" system to be optimal. Please note that although I am not very experienced, 90+% of my dives were involving carrying many equipment, controlling robots or other gear underwater for data collection etc. I have never felt that I needed a different setup for a dive. If you have something in mind please feel free to share.

My uninformed take is with standard gases we can ensure that always the deco procedures are the same, along with the mix in case of air-sharing. It adds to safety in one of the most dangerous aspects of tec diving.

Not sure. I am sure somebody else could give a thorough answer.

Yes, that's why GUE has a sidemount class...

I think that in case of stress the last think you would like is a diver not being able to reach their valves because the confused the configuration they are diving. Muscle memory is a thing, and the main reason more experienced divers might find a harder time to pass Fundies... If you train for 20 years to reach on the top for leaks, I doubt that in a stressful situation the first reaction of most will be the new procedure that they learned months ago on their brand new rebreather.

Why not 4 or 5? Why not 6 or 7? ... Why not 999 or 100? etc...
First of all at some point a red line should be chosen on what kind of risks are acceptable. Everybody does it, and you might be more conservative than GUE in some cases. Awesome. I don't believe that anybody would tell you anything if you dive with 2 computers. I do it myself due to my paranoia...
Secondly, you already dive with 2 or 3 computers, since you also dive with 1 or 2 buddies. Your buddies is an extention of yourself in GUE.
Thridly, GUE, to the best of my knowledge, is not against folllowing computers that are set up properly if needed. It is just against following them and relying blindly on them instead of the dive plan, assuming no major deviations were made from it. Dive computers for GUE is not a necessity, just something nice to have since every GUE dive could be done with bottom timers.

Not sure, but the self-infating SMB might self-inflate in appropriate moments endangering the entire team in a wreck or cave dive? i don't know.

Well I fundamentaly disagree. A GUE team is a unified team, one single living organism built on skills and trust. I want my buddy to also be responsible for my kit and circumstances, the same way I want myself to be responsible for my buddy. On the surface I want my buddy to let me know if they see something adding unecessary risk on the dive, and if something bad happens down there I wasnt my buddy to know how everything is placed on me during rescue. But of course to each their own...


Agreed ofc.

It also means that the buddy is considerring you all the time. And all GUE divers I know they just love diving. My GUE dives practically are like relationships: I will enjoy something I might find boring in other settings just because my buddies enjoy it, and I have noticed that this goes also the other way. I cannot say the same with insta-buddies ofc and your opinion might have been formed from such bad matchups.

For me scuba is a social sport, and I prefer if I should bother with a buddy in case my gear have a catastrophic failure or I face some other issue. You might think that you have optimized your equipment to be fully self reliant. I still prefer double or trimple the brain power and manipulation capabilities at all times for resolving issues, rather than just myself.

I don't think that everyone should take fundies. You obviously shouldn't since you have core philosophical differences with GUE, so it will be counterproductive for all invlolved (you, the instructor, and the other students).


You seem to insist on the dogma, but I think you have not interacted with GUE enough to be able to make such an assesment, while at the same time you are extremely offensive to all GUE divers. There are many GUE divers that are top researchers and professors in their fields, working their entire lives against any dogmatic belief. Calling all such divers dogmatic that are accepting the wisdom of "our dear lord and savior JJ" is, best-case, unreasonable.

I won't respond to everything you've said here simply as it's a bit off topic; happy to do it via PM. Of course if others want to hear it...!

Rebreathers are a fact of life now. The GUE JJ JJ is an obscure configuration of what's basically a standard rebreather -- yes, there's standard configurations that DIR haven't invented. When you're diving a rebreather you cannot be thinking like open circuit; it's very different. Most people are capable of learning new ways of doing things which they have to do with a rebreather. First and foremost is the inverted cylinder configuration for your oxygen and diluent -- this protects the valves against being hit on a ceiling, restriction, etc.

If -- and it's a big if -- there's suddenly a diver who's out of gas in front of you, a rebreather diver will simply reach back with their LEFT hand for the bailout regulator and donate it to the OOG diver. It's like the longhose, but on the LHS ('cos everyone uses Lean Left which they learned from the DIRists). There's none of this emergency come off the loop to untangle your longhose which is connected to your diluent nonsense. It's a simple grab the reg, pull it from the bungees on the stage and present it. Couldn't be easier and you practice it constantly. The sky doesn't fall inwards.

The 3 computers. How many torches do you carry? Do you have a backup one on your RH harness strap? I do, even on my rebreather. If you're in an overhead, how many torches would you bring? 3, 4...?

With computers you need them to keep track of your decompression obligation. If diving with others do you always stick to the same depth? Of course not, so you'll have different decompression obligations, albeit small. Following the computerS which are all set with the same Bhulmann gradient factors (50:80?) you'll do a team ascent where the slowest diver with the largest obligation will hold the rest of you back until theirs has cleared (otherwise you wave goodbye to them and see them on the boat -- that's fine by me). You MUST have more than one computer as you could well be doing a solo ascent and you really don't want problems if the computer fails -- thankfully we use Shearwaters which don't fail.

I carry 3 computers for deeper dives. Two are connected to my rebreather and run GF 50:80. They're always within a minute or two (my wrist mounted one is generally a few inches deeper than my NERD, so has a longer deco obligation). I carry a third standalone Perdix on my wrist which is set to GF 90:90. This is my last chance saloon should I really be in the poo. Have never needed it nor do I ever want to use it.

Where I dive the SMB rules are very clear. One bag per diver to be sent up from the wreck. The skipper will count them up, validate there's someone below them (see it twitch, bubbles, whatever) and will follow the bag trail downstream -- tides are often over 2kts. It is fun to see the skipper ripping the hell out of GUE people who send the bags up as a team and from 21m, meaning they're hundreds of yards/metres downstream and the skipper doesn't know if someone's stuck on the wreck. They only do it once.



On the other point, it's good that you enjoy diving with the GUE style teams. Really nice and a great way to spend a day. You have to give credit to other divers who don't see it that way, which is the point of this thread.


A tiny point about fundies & me: not sure there's any point to it for me; what would I learn and why spend all that time on a purely academic exercise?

 

[chillyinCanada]

Only if the dancing is macho enough for GUE standards.

Seriously though, if you do not decide to start dancing all over the place during a class, or in a silty cave endagering others, or in any other way adding substancial risk, the most likely senario is the instructor to join you. What's the purpose of diving if not for having fun? You could just stay in bed if your main goal in life is your horizontal trim. GUE does not remove fun from the activity, quite the opposite, it truly enhances it.

That's good that you've not forgotten that JJ likes to dance once in awhile.

 

[jadairiii]

... because the student who is not up to standards at the normal end of the course should continue to receive instruction until the standards are met. For almost all scuba instruction, students never actually fail--they just quit working to succeed.

The idea that a certain percentage of students should fail a class is an antiquated custom based on antiquated thinking. In old instructional concepts, time is the constant and performance is the variable. In modern thinking, performance is the standard and time is the variable.

.

You are correct, but you misinterpret my position, and I have taught scuba classes as an AI, I have also taught pubic speaking classes, law classes and had many interns that I have instructed. At least for SCUBA instruction, there are very few agencies that continue to teach the student that has not achieved the "standards". They are given the card without "passing" the course. And it's not that the student (generically speaking) quit working to succeed, but its the instructor, for whatever reason, quit on the student.

As to the second point, the bell curve is the bell curve. You will always have students that will fail (or should have been failed), simple statistics will tell you that. GUE is one of the few agencies that will continue to give instruction until the student passes, why they use the "provisional" pass.

And I was directly involved in a class in which one of the students failed, and rightly so. My GUE Cave 1 class, 3 students, 2 of which were full cave certified from a different agency, and the diver in question was also a cavern instructor for that same agency in which he was full cave. After a week of cave training, it was clear this one guy should have never been given a full cave card much less an instructor card. He panicked multiple times during our course, just simple observation he was not comfortable in "stressful" situation inside a cave (I also was diving with is guy once in the ocean in which he panicked). At the end of the class, the instructor flunked him. In this case time was the constant, he would never perform. BTW, I received a provisional, went back and passed later.

 

[mariosx]

I won't respond to everything you've said here simply as it's a bit off topic; happy to do it via PM. Of course if others want to hear it...!

Yeap, I also went of topic given that you gave some honest and interesting points.

Rebreathers are a fact of life now. The GUE JJ JJ is an obscure configuration of what's basically a standard rebreather -- yes, there's standard configurations that DIR haven't invented. When you're diving a rebreather you cannot be thinking like open circuit; it's very different. Most people are capable of learning new ways of doing things which they have to do with a rebreather. First and foremost is the inverted cylinder configuration for your oxygen and diluent -- this protects the valves against being hit on a ceiling, restriction, etc.

If -- and it's a big if -- there's suddenly a diver who's out of gas in front of you, a rebreather diver will simply reach back with their LEFT hand for the bailout regulator and donate it to the OOG diver. It's like the longhose, but on the LHS ('cos everyone uses Lean Left which they learned from the DIRists). There's none of this emergency come off the loop to untangle your longhose which is connected to your diluent nonsense. It's a simple grab the reg, pull it from the bungees on the stage and present it. Couldn't be easier and you practice it constantly. The sky doesn't fall inwards.

This discussion I am afraid it's well beyond my knowledge, since I don't see myself moving towards CCR anytime soon. You can call my following reasoning a falacy, but by default (before I investigate it myself etc) I would trust the choices of WKPP that performs dives that press the limits of possible, all these decades with an extremely good record.
Changes in GUE are slow, very slow for many, but I concider that a strength for the type of diving I prefer doing.
Again, I don't have any idea what to answer, just that many elite divers performing extreme dives seem to prefer this configuration than another one. Sure there are not the only elite divers in the world, and of course I will not argue against your take.

The 3 computers. How many torches do you carry? Do you have a backup one on your RH harness strap? I do, even on my rebreather. If you're in an overhead, how many torches would you bring? 3, 4...?

In overhead (please note, I am not cave trained), I bring 4 (2 backups, 1 primary, 1 backup primary in my pocket) and looks like an overkill already in practice.

With computers you need them to keep track of your decompression obligation. If diving with others do you always stick to the same depth? Of course not, so you'll have different decompression obligations, albeit small. Following the computerS which are all set with the same Bhulmann gradient factors (50:80?) you'll do a team ascent where the slowest diver with the largest obligation will hold the rest of you back until theirs has cleared (otherwise you wave goodbye to them and see them on the boat -- that's fine by me). You MUST have more than one computer as you could well be doing a solo ascent and you really don't want problems if the computer fails -- thankfully we use Shearwaters which don't fail.

In all dives I have made up to this point I always am at that same level as everybody else. Small exceptions are when in caverns, were this is not always feasible.
The thing is that always we have a maximum depth and a maximum duration in depth. ALL GUE divers ascent the exact same way safely since nobody violates the maximum depth and always you terminate the dive and ascent together when you reach the timeout.

You are describing a style of diving that is a lot less rigid and the diver can decide more freely on how to ascent. I prefer actually having a rigid plan and sticking with the plan. The only reason for me to follow my dive computer is if something went horribly wrong due to an emergency and I had to abandon my dive plan and left alone. This is a worst case scenario that I hope I will never experience, but I am paranoid enough to always dive with a second computer just in case.

I carry 3 computers for deeper dives. Two are connected to my rebreather and run GF 50:80. They're always within a minute or two (my wrist mounted one is generally a few inches deeper than my NERD, so has a longer deco obligation). I carry a third standalone Perdix on my wrist which is set to GF 90:90. This is my last chance saloon should I really be in the poo. Have never needed it nor do I ever want to use it.

I don't challenge the safety of your methods, since I am far less experienced than you are. It's reasonable to have different school of thoughts and for me team diving fits better with my mentality to this point. Simply that.

Where I dive the SMB rules are very clear. One bag per diver to be sent up from the wreck. The skipper will count them up, validate there's someone below them (see it twitch, bubbles, whatever) and will follow the bag trail downstream -- tides are often over 2kts. It is fun to see the skipper ripping the hell out of GUE people who send the bags up as a team and from 21m, meaning they're hundreds of yards/metres downstream and the skipper doesn't know if someone's stuck on the wreck. They only do it once.

This seems to be poor briefing from the skipper's side to be honest. GUE does not train people for diving with currents (or at least I am not aware of the class), but I am confident that if you inform any GUE diver regarding the procedures (everyone deploys DSMB from X depth) they will follow them. If the GUE divers you have experienced are aware of the rules of the captain, and choose not to follow them, well, they are on the wrong and they do not represent the vast majority of the GUE community.

On the other point, it's good that you enjoy diving with the GUE style teams. Really nice and a great way to spend a day. You have to give credit to other divers who don't see it that way, which is the point of this thread.

In this thread I never argued against divers that do not want to get involved to GUE. It's not for everyone, and I think from the first pages the thread the question of the OP has been answered. I take a bit of an issue with people assigning "dogma" to GUE, because not only it's extremely inaccurate, but also offensive to thousands of divers.

A tiny point about fundies & me: not sure there's any point to it for me; what would I learn and why spend all that time on a purely academic exercise?

Agreed. Even if you had much less experience/skills/etc... the metnality you are displaying is not fitting for GUE. And I would like to emphasize that I don't mean that in a degrading way, it's just that GUE is training divers who are already having some basic agreement with their main core philosophy. If you decided to start training with GUE without finding a value on the style of diving, it will be a waste of time of everyone in involved, especially yourself. It's like forcing a classic music player participating in jazz courses. If they are not interested on learning how to play jazz, or incorporating jazz to their music, it's a waste of resources.

 

[Manatee Diver]

@Wibble You are arguing with someone that is at the Fundies level. I don't see what he is saying because he is on ignore for me, but he isn't going to be able to make a convincing case to you simply because he doesn't have the breadth of experience required to answer your questions.

 

[Lorenzoid]

I realize the original question was why people participate in threads about GUE yet do NOT give Fundies a try. On the flip side, there are divers who do not often participate in threads about GUE yet have given Fundies a try. Some VERY experienced divers. I'm thinking @kensuf. I believe he posted a report on his Fundies class a few years ago.

 

[Adobo]

yes my opinion is based on reading primarily. It seems strange to get your feather ruffled when the reality is that the op specifically requested input from NON gue divers.

I am sure you know this - it makes absolutely no difference to me whether what you know about GUE training (or anything else) is based on good evidence vs.twisted/perverted information you got in the internet. It makes no difference to me whatsoever. My feathers don’t care either.

However, you went to the trouble of reading many of the posts in this thread and many others like it in the DiR forum. The question it would behoove you to answer for yourself is, is what you know real or is it bullshevik? If you have a desire to know the what’s and the why’s of DiR diving, ask questions. And in an objective way. Clear your mind of whatever you think you know and start from a clean slate. And ask questions.