Who Wrote the Standard?

[DeepSeaDan]

To all those responding to my thread concerning government regulation of scuba diving...I thank you. In hindsight, I should have done my homework before introducing the topic, but such wisdom is indeed, 20/20.

I have been doing some reading, & after consulting several sources I find myself unsure as to who created the minimum standards promoted by the RSTC. I have learned that another committee outside of the RSTC & created by ANSI also works to determine the official U.S. minimum standards. If anyone could shed some light in this area, I would be appreciative.

As to the minimum standards themselves, they seem to have all the bases covered, but do they go far enough? Are they adequate, or are they too "minimal."

Quoting John Francis in "Training Agencies: Who's the Best?":

" For these minimum standards we can thank, believe it or not, the government & lawyers. Fear of ham-fisted regulation as well as the ( sharks that swim on land ) has forced the certification agencies to school around an industry standard, called ANSI Z-86.3 ( soon to be revised and reissued as Z-375.1 )."

So in fear of government interference, the cert. agencies pre-empted the spectre of legislation by agreeing on a set of minimum standards. Mr. Francis further states: " It was written by the RSTC, whose members are IDEA, NASDS, PADI, PDIC, SSI and YMCA. "

Why are the other established training agencies not members of the RSTC & therefore silent with respect to establishing minimum standards for their industry? Do they belong to the supposed "other" committee reporting to ANSI & are therfore heard?

Does the blessing of ANSI ( a non-profit organization that certifies an industry standard has been arrived at through open discussion and with due process ) suggest these standards are adequate?

It is obvious that, once again, greed rules the day. If not, why would weekend courses exist? Who really believes John Q. Public can become a competent diver in that time frame? Great for the bottom line though. Move em' in, move em' out, keep the cash flow streaming! Why would the RSTC move to drop the eligibility age for scuba to 10 ( some say it was dropped entirely ) when the majority of professional opinion is against such a move?

I suggest the "minimum standards" need a major revisiting. We need to return to a more reasonable time period for learning. Students need sufficient time to practice skills & absorb the theory. Yes, costs will rise; yes, it would be less appealing to our "instant gratification" society, thus revenues would decrease. On the flip side...more motivated students, better divers, fewer accidents.

Diving isn't like any other recreational endeavour. Its fun on life support.

If ALL the players can agree to higher minimum standards, all the better; if they can't, government should step in and, in the immortal words of Jean Luc Picard: " Make it so."

D.S.D.

 

[budgy]

Do you have an equivalent of BSAC or SAA in your area? The certificate agencies are okay for holiday divers, and after the basics, a new diver needs access to a group of dive buddies for regular practise to improve. Though I do find in the club system a tendancy towards trainee's of pulling up the ladder.
Regarding dive training; When you get to the basics of learning I think, "Show and Tell" is the only efficient tool, also the dive trainee is for the most part only free to learn on weekends. They break the training down into individual tasks, ie., clear reg, clear mask etc., demonstrate tasks, observe people performing tasks, correct mistakes. If the trainee can perform the task to the specification, they need the confidence boost of being told they are progressing and are performing the task correctly. Using time as efficiently as possible, teach a set number of tasks, when they can be performed correctly, the trainee is awarded an acknowledgement of their ability. Most of us have very little real experience; remember 100 hours may take three years or more regular weekend practice. If we relate 100 hours to driving or some other task we see that most of us have very little experience at diving. The new divers lack of experience and control will only come with many hours of regular practice. As a newly certificated diver I had more opportunity to dive than as a trainee, because there are more certified divers than there are instructors. You are correct that there is not enough diving experience in the training systems of a commercial certificate agency. This critisism could also be applied to most training systems of most subjects.

 

[Rick Murchison]

The ANSI and RSTC (neither ANSI nor RSTC are governmental entities) standards were written by essentially the same people serving on both committees - there were a few differences but mostly the same folks. The standard was indeed written out of fear of government intervention into Scuba.
------------------------
Now, to the issue...
The United States has at its very core the twin concepts of limited government and individual freedom - including the freedom to be an idiot. Our Bill of Rights specifically denies the Federal Government any powers beyond those delineated in the constitution, a prohibition largely ignored for the past fifty years. The question shouldn't be whether we "need" the government to help us police our industry at all, but rather whether the government has the constitutional power and duty to do so. It does not. We shouldn't have to form committies and write standards (no matter how wise or right that may be) to keep an ever more intrusive government from whacking away at yet another area of individual freedom.
Rick

 

[tombiowami]

Not to get too far off the subject, but gov'ts do not have a blazingly good track record when they step in and make things so.

There is a somewhat higher law, being survival of the fittest. Get a copy of the diving deaths and accidents and in general you will see a multitude of errors and stupid behaviour leading up to the incident.

Common sense must be a part of every day life.

And if gov did step in, well, expect a whole new round of taxes on all gear, travel, training, etc. to pay for all that stepping in.

From what I have seen, the training agencies do an adequate job of training people. The problem comes from the fact that after OW a person is trained to dive up to around 60 feet in conditions similar to those trained in. This is commonly violated and a major part of most of the accidents in diving.

Tommy

 

[JamesK]

Originally posted by Rick Murchison
Now, to the issue...
The United States has at its very core the twin concepts of limited government and individual freedom - including the freedom to be an idiot. Our Bill of Rights specifically denies the Federal Government any powers beyond those delineated in the constitution, a prohibition largely ignored for the past fifty years. The question shouldn't be whether we "need" the government to help us police our industry at all, but rather whether the government has the constitutional power and duty to do so. It does not. We shouldn't have to form committies and write standards (no matter how wise or right that may be) to keep an ever more intrusive government from whacking away at yet another area of individual freedom.
Rick

*Stands up and applauds!* Good Show Rick! Too bad many have lost this core belief that our Constiutional Republic prohibits federal intervention. The government was set up to protect us from foreign invasion, and to protect The Constiution, not to protect us from ourselves. Too bad it is starting to fail miserably. However, that is another story. I will stop before I end up on a :box: and make this a novel.

 

[DeepSeaDan]

Rick,

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a big fan of governmental intrusion, but I do believe there are times when it is the only source of protection for all those "idiots" out there.

It is usually business that screams the loudest when regulation is suggested, & in many instances they have good reason to scream, as governments have a long history of mucking things up. This does not, however, automatically condemn all regulatory action. They have there successes as well.

The dive industry had the right idea by creating minimum standards, they just didn't take them far enough. The core of the problem is that higher standards mean less profit.

That is why I asked my original question: where will it all end? The drive for more profit has certain agencies chasing young children into the water, all for the sake of the bottom line.

I think its time the industry stopped for a moment to reflect on its "core values."

D.S.D.

 

[JamesK]

Dan,

This is something that should be regulated from within the industry. You are correct that the industry needs to step back and take a look at itself, however, it is not the place for the government to step in. There will always be idiots, no amount of regulation will stop that. Unless the industry is doing things that intentionally harm the public, or give false and misleading information, the government has no place in it. If it does, then it should be a criminal or civil trial, and not government regulation.

 

[DeepSeaDan]

B.J.,

I don't disagree with you, but will industry take the lead? Not likely when profits are at stake.

D.S.D.

 

[DeepSeaDan]

Tombiowami,

I am, in fact, an avid reader of all the injury/fatality incident reports I can lay my hands on. I use case studies in my teaching to give students an insight into what can go wrong u/w.

What these reports do not detail is the casualties training specifics. I do agree that many of the incidents are the result of diver error ( read: GROSS STUPIDITY ), but to what extent was their behaviour the result of low I.Q. & what %age was due to the training ( or lack thereof ) they received? It would be interesting to know.

D.S.D.

 

[pipedope]

Government regulation is not the answer.

Continuing education is the answer.

The OW cert is simply a license to learn and build time like the basic private pilot license. Just because you have it doesn't mean you are done it just means that you can go and practice and learn on your own.

The key is to get people out diving with more experienced people as soon and as much as possible.
This should be fairly easy for those who really want to be divers. Just give them a chance to go and a little encouragement that it is ok to be the new person on the boat/beach, we were all there once.

The people who get the OW cert, do one dive and never dive again are not a problem. If they never dive, they will never be in a diving accident.

The people who dive once a year are a real potential problem. I think the best answer for these people is to turn them into regular divers by making it exciting/interesting enough to win out over their other hobbies. Get them into photography, marine life studies, fish counting, underwater metal detecting, something, *anything* that will get them diving frequently.

People who dive a lot will naturally upgrade their skills and equipment on a regular basis.

Making it fun works far betten than making threats.

michael