Who is the "final word" as to what is DIR?

[jhelmuth]

You were correct on all points. I did get defensive. And that is the point I was somewhat trying to make (but failed to do so very well) - that the DIR configuration is (or seems) ridgid such that all other divers do feel belittled from these responses. There are very fine points you make which any reasonable person would have to agree with. THere are also other consideratinos which are measured (or sometimes not for lack of information/availabile equipment) toward the enjoyment of the sport. I like the QR feature - if it really had issues with coming disconnected, I'd have issue and change it for the type harness you are speaking of. I'm not very familiar with it, so my apology for my lack of knowledge. I was attempting to point out that there could be failure in other systems - maybe not this one though - I really can't say.
I did not intend to make you feel that I was representing any group - I'm not (certainly no group has given any such authority). My reference to "we" was a generic reference to myself and similar people who were taught SCUBA through the typical certifying agencies. Please give me some due credit - I did say that I had not yet tried the BP/wing. I certainly might like it better, but for that sake of presenting the point that the goal is acheving results is also a sound reason, I wanted to try to see if you could accept that on face value. Lastly, I appologize for sounding like I was bashing. That wasn't my intention. I understand now that it is not so easy to write one's intentions in the form of electronic communication.
Anyway, please consider this my way of saying that I am sorry, and I'd be very happy to learn more from you on this matter.

 

[JeffG]

jhelmuth once bubbled...

So let me ask you then... why would a back floatation BCD (like the SeaQuest Balance) not suffice. It accomplishes the same type of bouyancy (Back floatation), but without the seperate BP (it's still a wing design). The only diff is that it would not do double tanks (double duty!) -...

Now I don't pretend to know the minds of JJ and GI3 but if you watch the DIR III video that is on the Internet. GI3 sums up the why the BP is the choice of DIR.

1st - You must make the assumption that the BP/wings is the best Tech Set up. (I think this is pretty safe, all the Tech agencies seem to have gone to the Hogarthian setup)

Then GI3 says if a diver starts with a BP/wings and this rig covers him for my entire diving life (regardless of the type of diving) then it is a "Better Rig".

You have increased safety .... because your setup is always (or close to) the same.

I have not found on the GUE web site where they say anything but wings suck (That usually is left for the dir advocates on the Web )

So in the End what does this mean.....

I think the BP/Wings combo can compete head to head with the other types/styles of BCD's.

They might lose a bit on comfort, travel ease, ...<insert other reasons here>

But the have good Trim/Drag issues, doesn't ride up because of the crotch strap... <insert other good resons here>


So add that with that you can use it for your entire diving life its not a bad choice, but if you know that you will always be a rec diver, there is nothing saying that you can't have good trim......etc etc blah blah blah with a more conventional BC.

 

[Northeastwrecks]

jhelmuth once bubbled...
Please give me some due credit - I did say that I had not yet tried the BP/wing. I certainly might like it better, but for that sake of presenting the point that the goal is acheving results is also a sound reason, I wanted to try to see if you could accept that on face value. Lastly, I appologize for sounding like I was bashing. That wasn't my intention. I understand now that it is not so easy to write one's intentions in the form of electronic communication.
Anyway, please consider this my way of saying that I am sorry, and I'd be very happy to learn more from you on this matter.

No apology is necessary. This is still a friendly discussion as far as I'm concerned.

I see that you are located in Florida. How far are you from High Springs? Extreme Exposure is right there.

I can accept that your BC meets your goals. I'm not going to sit here and tell you that your goals are wrong. I'm certainly not going to knock your gear. My LDS sells Sea Quest. Nice stuff.

In my mind, its all a matter of degree. With certain notable exceptions (Spare Deaths come to mind), most gear is very functional. However, there are trade offs. The convenience of a Quick Disconnect, for example, is traded off against the admittedly small chance that it will fail at depth. In some of the places I've been diving (my favorite site is a WWII sub that can be penetrated throughout her entire length), that failure could be rather bad. For that reason I choose to minimize the risk at the expense of convenience.

It up to you and your dive buddies to determine whether a particular configuration meets your goals.

I've made a conscious choice to dive with a philosoply and with equipment that minimizes risk. DIR meets that goal for me. Its really that simple.

 

[Dryglove]

Ill add just a few points of using a BP/wing over a regular bc

1) all that padding adds more bouyancy causing you to wear more lead to compensate

2) A lot of bc's tend to trap air

3)Shoulder straps tend to loosen in the water on bc's

4)a bp/wing uses a simple rear dump and inflator dump unlike some bc's that have a rear dump,plus a pull dump,inflator dump,plus a right shoulder dump thus giving the bp/wing less failure points.

5) tank shift on a regular bc.Tank is held firmly in place with the backplate and doesnt shift side to side.

This isnt meant to thrash on non bp/wing owners just pointing a few things out and yes i can verify the above and other things said through out this thread as i also own a knighthawk and can tell a difference.

 

[jhelmuth]

lal7176,

I assumed you converted to the BP. If so, I also assumed you were either unhappy with the Nighthawk (don't know this one either), or were offered the chance to try the BP. Could you reply (PM is good so as to not divert this thread) on the circumstances and why you changed? Was the additional cost worth it? If so could you try to quantify it for me? I'd like to decide if I should strongly pursue this route, or would I be expecting too much from a BP/wing set up?

 

[Cave Diver]

jhelmuth once bubbled...



So let me ask you then... why would a back floatation BCD (like the SeaQuest Balance) not suffice. It accomplishes the same type of bouyancy (Back floatation), but without the seperate BP (it's still a wing design). The only diff is that it would not do double tanks (double duty!) - but you could have another model for that if you wished. (just an example)
In any case, what "strokes" find offensive is the generalization that we are all the same no-account slugs that can't properly maintain their hover/bouyancy control skill. While I conceed this is a problem for many traditional rec divers out there, it is not as epidemic as the DIR fanatics would tell.

You SeaQuestt most certainly WILL suffice for most of the types of diving you may ever do. However a BP/wing setup has a few advantages over a typical back inflate BC.

First off, the buckles/snaps/quick releases are a *potential* failure point. Chances are they will never fail. But some careless yahoo on a dive boat might happen to set his tank down right on top of one of your plastic buckles. *crack* your diving is done for the day (maybe the trip). If that DID happen, then there is a good chance the replacement part might be rather expensive (and a special order item).

A BP on the other hand, uses one piece of continuous webbing. If it becomes frayed from use (almost impossible to tear one) you can replace it for less than $20. You can also find the webbing at a variety of places, so you wouldnt be waiting weeks for a replacement.

Secondly, a BP/wing set up is inherently more streamlined than typical back inflate jackets. Streamlining plays a large part in air consumption and ease of movement.

Another consideration of a BP, is that by learning to use one for recreational diving, if at some point you decide to change to more technical types of diving, you can still use the same equipment! This is a major consideration, as it relieves some of the stress as you progress in your training because you dont have to relearn a new piece of gear. Diving doubles? Change the wing to one with greater lift. All of your other gear stays the same.

Redundancy is another key issue. If you dive a bp/wing setup, and your buddy dives the same setup, you are both intimately familiar with the others equipment, because it is the same as your own! If you forgot your gear, you could jump into your buddies and be completely safe, because it is just like yours. If your buddy has a problem, you know how to fix it for him, because it is just like yours.

So, yes, your SeaQuest is most likely adequate for your diving. But it is possible that there are choices that might be even better. Why settle for mediocre if you can have excellence.

Just remember one thing... Only YOU can choose what works best for YOU.

 

[Dryglove]

jhelmuth once bubbled...
lal7176,

I assumed you converted to the BP. If so, I also assumed you were either unhappy with the Nighthawk (don't know this one either), or were offered the chance to try the BP. Could you reply (PM is good so as to not divert this thread) on the circumstances and why you changed? Was the additional cost worth it? If so could you try to quantify it for me? I'd like to decide if I should strongly pursue this route, or would I be expecting too much from a BP/wing set up?

I was introduced to DIR style of diving about a year ago.When i first seen it i thought it was a bunch of that technical crap that i would never get into plus the look of that bp/wing thing didnt look near as comfy or cool as my knighthawk.Then they had this god awful long hose wrapped around there body along with those expensive cannister lights for technical diving.A closer look revealed another reg bungeed to their neck.I remember saying to myself what the hell are these guys thinking.On top of that they werent even using split fins.We used to get a good laugh out of those guys with all their fancy gadgets.

Well after watching these guys dive it was amazing.Their training along with their equipment made them excellent divers.They were extremely efficient in the water and used all these weird kicks.Best of all their equipment configuration works just as well for a regular open water diver as it does for a technical diver with minor gear configurations.I must say i was very impressed at how they could hover inches off the bottom without leaving a trail behind them.

Well about 4mos ago i coverted over to the DIR style of diving and am hoping to take DIR fundamentals this month.I am still fond of my knighthawk w/an air2.But the bp just seems to work so much better especially if you want to use a cannister light and the back up lights tuck nicely under your arm.As a system it works great.I dont think you could go wrong with a halcyon BP/wing but if you dont think its for you dont buy it.A great book to read is Doing It Right: The Fundamentals of Better Diving.It explains the whole system.Ok now ill get off of my dir rant and list the reasons why i like my bp/wing better than my knighthawk

No straps to come loose

no unnecessary padding to add bouyancy.I dive cold water so i already have plenty of padding with my exposure suit

No tank shift

no sternum strap

only two simple valves.I never used my pull dump anyways.If you have an out of air situation with an air 2 you have to use the right shoulder dump to control your ascent if breathing off of the air2.Thats why the bungeed second is so nice.

much easier to reach the valve on my tank in the bp/wing

Nice short easy to find inflator/deflator

tank and bp is mounted solid to your back as you enter/exit the water thanks to the harness and not hanging down to your butt like my knighthawk did.

nice simple air cell that doesnt trap air

The ability to expand to doubles later on by just converting my air cell and not buying another whole bc

ease of carrying a cannister light and back up lights and lift bag

Like i said if i had to do it over again i would go with my halcyon bp/wing.The knighthawk is a great bc also, i just like the advantages of a bp/wing more and is more suited to my style of diving.But buy what you like and what is suited for you.If you can get a chance to try a BP/wing go for it.

 

[Dryglove]

lal7176 once bubbled...


I was introduced to DIR style of diving about a year ago.When i first seen it i thought it was a bunch of that technical crap that i would never get into plus the look of that bp/wing thing didnt look near as comfy or cool as my knighthawk.Then they had this god awful long hose wrapped around there body along with those expensive cannister lights for technical diving.A closer look revealed another reg bungeed to their neck.I remember saying to myself what the hell are these guys thinking.On top of that they werent even using split fins.We used to get a good laugh out of those guys with all their fancy gadgets.

Well after watching these guys dive it was amazing.Their training along with their equipment made them excellent divers.They were extremely efficient in the water and used all these weird kicks.Best of all their equipment configuration works just as well for a regular open water diver as it does for a technical diver with minor gear configurations.I must say i was very impressed at how they could hover inches off the bottom without leaving a trail behind them.

Well about 4mos ago i coverted over to the DIR style of diving and am hoping to take DIR fundamentals this month.I am still fond of my knighthawk w/an air2.But the bp just seems to work so much better especially if you want to use a cannister light and the back up lights tuck nicely under your arm.As a system it works great.I dont think you could go wrong with a halcyon BP/wing but if you dont think its for you dont buy it.A great book to read is Doing It Right: The Fundamentals of Better Diving.It explains the whole system.Ok now ill get off of my dir rant and list the reasons why i like my bp/wing better than my knighthawk

No straps to come loose

no unnecessary padding to add bouyancy.I dive cold water so i already have plenty of padding with my exposure suit

No tank shift

no sternum strap

only two simple valves.I never used my pull dump anyways.If you have an out of air situation with an air 2 you have to use the right shoulder dump to control your ascent if breathing off of the air2.Thats why the bungeed second is so nice.

much easier to reach the valve on my tank in the bp/wing

Nice short easy to find inflator/deflator

tank and bp is mounted solid to your back as you enter/exit the water thanks to the harness and not hanging down to your butt like my knighthawk did.

nice simple air cell that doesnt trap air

The ability to expand to doubles later on by just converting my air cell and not buying another whole bc

ease of carrying a cannister light and back up lights and lift bag

Like i said if i had to do it over again i would go with my halcyon bp/wing.The knighthawk is a great bc also, i just like the advantages of a bp/wing more and is more suited to my style of diving.But buy what you like and what is suited for you.If you can get a chance to try a BP/wing go for it.

Here is a good link about the backplate http://www.baue.org/faq/backplate_sizing_inline_images.html

 

[MHK]

Fetch once bubbled...
I guess its too much to hope MHK would jump in on this, because I'm curious as well

My DIRF instructors tried to explain why I should go with breakable links, and because my knots were crap I did it for the class, but I rechecked GI's thinking and, agreeing with it, went back to the old way.


Kane, pipe up!

jeff

Sorry guys I've been out of town teaching a class so it's my first opportunity to jump in..

I think the best way to answer the questions as to who has the *final* word, such as the term is used is best described as follows:

George Irvine is the Director of the Woodville Karst Plain Project [ WKPP] and JJ is the Training Director for the WKPP, that is meant to say that JJ and George are on the same page and generally speaking their is no *final* word on the WKPP until both George and JJ agree. Now that being said, these two guys are best of friends, they speak regularly and the overwhelming majority of the issues relating to WKPP diving have long ago been settled, but it's important to note that George heads up the WKPP but I can't really imagine a situation where George would have one *final* word and JJ another. They have worked to gether for so long I suspect strongly they would work through the issue privately and then announce a consensus..

As to GUE it's important to bear in mind that most of what is taught through GUE classes stems from 1,000's and 1,000's of manhour dives and experience at the WKPP so by definition there is a commonality of techniques. Accordingly George's input is often sought out and is considered highly valuable when an issue presents itself that comes up in a GUE setting that may not apply to a WKPP setting.

Generall speaking Andrew, and to a lesser extent myself, do most of the traveling so we see the widest variety of questions and situations that may need clarification. Andrew Georgitis is the Training Director for GUE, but again it's important to remember that most of us are good friends and we speak to each other very often, so if a unique situation presented itself we would all share our thoughts amongst ourselves and form a consensus and then issue a *final* word. In point of fact, very recently Andrew Georgitis and I were finalizing the Triox program. That program required that we re-write certain decompression tables, and we modified them to conform to generally recommended GUE ascent rates and generally recommended deep stops and such. This class is designed for helium based diving in the 80' - 130' range so this isn't a situation for example that the WKPP would encounter, but you can very well bet that we sought George and JJ's advise.. We preach unified team underwater and we try to implement that concept to all levels of our diving, including, but not limited to, the *final* word...

I hope that helps but let me know if it isn't clear and I'll see if I can expand..

Later