Who is right? Who is wrong?

[Trace Malinowski]

Something to keep in mind about honest answers to medical questions: In my experience students are more likely to answer the questions on the medical form more honestly and secure a physician's release if they have the waivers and medical forms well in advance and not on the day of the class. I don't think I've ever had a student indicate that he or she had a medical condition when I handed out waivers and medical forms at the start of class. If mailed, faxed or downloaded in advance, I've had a bunch of students over the years contact me and/or their physicians about questionable issues. Except in Canada ... they are all 100% healthy until they can finally see their doctors a year later!

When I created the medical forms and waivers for the PDIC Solo courses, a physical exam was mandatory prior to class. It was funny how a student's record showed no health issues in any other course until they had to see their doctors! Then, there were always "Yes" answers somewhere.

 

[tlj3071]

When I took my first resort discovery dive on GCI, the instructor handed out the PADI medical forms and said "if you answer 'yes' to any question you will not be allowed to dive". This pretty well ensured that everybody was completely healthy .

 

[danvolker]

Something to keep in mind about honest answers to medical questions: In my experience students are more likely to answer the questions on the medical form more honestly and secure a physician's release if they have the waivers and medical forms well in advance and not on the day of the class. I don't think I've ever had a student indicate that he or she had a medical condition when I handed out waivers and medical forms at the start of class. If mailed, faxed or downloaded in advance, I've had a bunch of students over the years contact me and/or their physicians about questionable issues. Except in Canada ... they are all 100% healthy until they can finally see their doctors a year later!

When I created the medical forms and waivers for the PDIC Solo courses, a physical exam was mandatory prior to class. It was funny how a student's record showed no health issues in any other course until they had to see their doctors! Then, there were always "Yes" answers somewhere.

And some of the med form questions are just plain stupid for a DSD dive in 20 or 30 feet of water....for example, if they indicate they have taken sudafed type allergy meds ( or equivalent) then they can't do the dsd without a doctor's consent. While pharmacological effects may indeed occur from these drugs at 150 feet deep or deeper, at 20 or 30 feet, this is just forcing people to consider the form ridiculous...i/e., to handle it by telling them a yes means no diving.

 

[boulderjohn]

And some of the med form questions are just plain stupid for a DSD dive in 20 or 30 feet of water....for example, if they indicate they have taken sudafed type allergy meds ( or equivalent) then they can't do the dsd without a doctor's consent. While pharmacological effects may indeed occur from these drugs at 150 feet deep or deeper, at 20 or 30 feet, this is just forcing people to consider the form ridiculous...i/e., to handle it by telling them a yes means no diving.

It is interesting to compare agencies with regard to the medical form requirements.

Dan is correct that the RSTC form used by PADI and a number of other agencies requires a doctor's OK if you are taking ANY prescription drug, even really benign ones that have absolutely no effect on diving. Because I take a couple such prescription drugs, I have to mark YES on that item, and there are a couple other items I have to mark YES on. Consequently, if I take any class from that agency, I have to get a doctor's permission. (The form was required for all instructors where I used to work.) The form is good for a year, though, so if I take two such classes in a year, I don't need to repeat it.

On the other hand, another agency from whom I have taken classes has a similar form, but the items are different enough that I can honestly say NO to everything on the list and not need a doctor's consent.

Then again, another agency from whom I have certifications has the form completed online. It is extremely detailed, and it takes a long time to fill out. Not only that, but you have to fill it out new for every class you take, even if you take several in a year or even concurrently. The last time I filled one out (for I think the 7th time in 2 years), it was for a purely academic class with no in-water time at all. I was a bit peeved that I had to go through that very long and tedious process for a one evening classroom session, and when it came to the part asking me to list the prescription medications I was taking individually, something I had already done the previous 6 times I had filled out the form, I just said "Screw it" and left that part blank. Well, apparently they did not notice that until after the class was over, because they let me take the class (although I never got the certification card for it). However, the next time I went diving (not a class) and shared a motel room with one of their instructors, he brazenly walked over to my toilet kit and looked inside, saying, "What prescription medications are you taking now?" And by the way, for that agency, it does not matter how many times you write YES--no doctor statement is required. They make the decision based upon their own extensive (?) knowledge of medical conditions.

 

[Diver0001]

who is going to pay responsible for the cases below:
Case 1 - A student with middle age (40-50) with fat body asked for course and he claim himself is healthy to take diving course. Then, the instructor doubt and rejected for few times until he signed a paper written

Instructor's fault. When in doubt the student goes for a doctor's medical. Instructors, even if they ARE doctors, don't play doctor. This one did. The student died as a result.

Case 2 - a customer at age 20-30 visited to a dive center, asked for DSD and he claim himself is healthy to go for the 30min course.

Depending on conditions it's not uncommon to run DSD's in shallow open water. However, conditions having strong current are not conducive to executing a safe DSD. Again I would hold the DM responsible for showing poor judgement with respect to conditions (something that could not have been expected from the student) thereby creating the conditions that made the accident possible.

R..

 

[hroark2112]

In case 2, DSDs must be performed by an instructor. DM's may only assist. It sounds like standards were broken in each case, and PADI took proper action for broken standards.

From the PADI Divemaster section "What you can teach" Divemaster Courses - Lessons, Training, Tips & Professional Careers - PADI Scuba Diving Training Organization

If qualified as a Discover Scuba Diving Leader, independently conduct the PADI Discover Scuba Diving program.

 

[Karl_H]

It was a shore dive. Not for boat dive, and in Asia, you can do DSD in any house reef there's a lot islands with warm water. That's common, we seldom provide DSD in swimming pool etc unless the customers are panic or they take dsd in mainland.

And we still wonder why we get a bad reputation here in Asia For me, this isn't an Asia thing, it's just a bad dive center thing.

I'm pretty sure you'll find a DM with a DSD leader can only conduct the course in a pool, I'm sure there's an argument you can treat the shore dive as 'confined open water' but let face it this is really just abusing a loophole.

Using a DM DSD Leader over an instructor may not always be a bad thing - but I certainly wouldn't come and boast about it in a public forum, I'm sure there's been plenty of accidents already down to people making their own interpretation of this same loophole.

 

[Diver0001]

I'm pretty sure you'll find a DM with a DSD leader can only conduct the course in a pool,

The term is "confined water" PADI has a definition of confined water that basically boils down to "swimming pool- LIKE- conditions"

I interpret that to mean that shallow open water sites can be used provided they are free of risks like current, overheads, low water temperatures or poor visibility etc. Basically, it can be a shallow open water bay provided conditions are ideal.

If I had access to a good open water site for training then i would do all of my training there. Seriously. People only teach in pools because they aren't fortunate enough to have access to anything better. You are fortunate in that you do.

R..

 

[Karl_H]

The term is "confined water" PADI has a definition of confined water that basically boils down to "swimming pool- LIKE- conditions"

I interpret that to mean that shallow open water sites can be used provided they are free of risks like current, overheads, low water temperatures or poor visibility etc. Basically, it can be a shallow open water bay provided conditions are ideal.

If I had access to a good open water site for training then i would do all of my training there. Seriously. People only teach in pools because they aren't fortunate enough to have access to anything better. You are fortunate in that you do.

R..

I take your point but there's 2 ways to looks at it in my opinion as I tried to explain above, the first is your suggestion where you are using confined open water as a pool type environment, the second is using confined open water as a blatant loophole to take people on discover scuba dives they really shouldn't be on.

There's a big difference there?

 

[Toad 5]

Just my opinion. I believe the instructor in the first case was wrong for this reason; diving is too dangerous for said person to be under my responsibility, but not too dangerous to take "the unknown" risk into said persons own hands. I don't believe I would let a 5 year old drive my car if they signed a waiver, no matter how much they asked. In my opinion, you need to ask yourself "would I allow a loved one to do this?" If you answer "no", then do not allow anyone else to do it either.