Who here has done a real life CESA and what was your experience?

[InTheDrink]

I appreciate that what you say might be achievable in theory, but in practice, in really, really lovely water with 30m+ visibility, do people really stay so tight? I'm curious because I've never seen that in warm, clear waters. In cold, muddy waters, yes, you are like a hawk on your buddy.

Then there's rapidly changing environmental conditions, which you guys know more about than I, but 5m separation in benign conditions can be safe, but if conditions change all of a sudden (change in channel current in this instance), there's no time to react.

Anyway, I'm not making my point or question clear: my point really is, yes theoretically I could learn to stay so close to my buddy this eventuality could never happen. But this would have a very negative impact on my enjoyment of diving. I don't want to always be THAT close in warm clear water on the off chance conditions might rapidly change. And therefore, I'm keen to understand where the limits of CESA kick in. If I'm at 40m and it's not reasonable to expect to do a CESA from there without repercussions, then I'll stick real close to said buddy for that part of the dive, no matter how warm or clear. But at 10m, it appears that I have every chance of being able to make it out fine if the warm stuff hits the fan.

My question was, where's the line. 10m? 20m? 30m? 40? And the question was answered well, mainly by people's experiences. I think it's always important to remember you're more likely to die driving to the dive site than in it. You can't manage risk out of the contract totally. So you choose where your line is. In warm, clear, tropical water, you will, I believe dive differently than in cold dark water and adapt your practises accordingly, rightly so.

Here's another question, and I'm not being facetious: do DIR divers dive in tropical waters and when they do, on a shallow, easy, simple dive - do they dive DIR/Team???

 

[Web Monkey]

In a raging current with critical kit malfunctioning (e.g. regulator) and your buddy downstream, what are your options? I've only 90 dives under my belt and this scenario, broadly, has already happened to me, so I wouldn't discount it happening again.

The options are to make sure it doesn't happen again, and if it does, follow your pre-arranged "lost buddy" protocol.

Unless God wishes to strike you dead, the chances of you following your training and still losing your buddy, then immediately having a failure that prevents both of your regulators from functioning before you have a chance to surface are extremely slim, to say the least. "No Buddy" = "Dive Over".

I think the buddy system is great and I really focus on it. But I think there are times when it cannot apply because you cannot get to your buddy. (because of environmental reasons: current, viz, etc.)

If you "Can't get to your buddy", you don't have a buddy. You just have some guy that got in the water around when you did. In low vis or high current or any other unusual situations, the distance between you and your buddy might be as little as a foot (or less). In fact, I dive in conditions like you describe all the time, and the normal distance is measured by the question "can i poke him in the ribs with my finger?"

This isn't to say that separation never occurs, just that if separation does occur, the dive is over. Our protocol is a 1 minute search, followed by sending up an SMB, followed by a normal ascent including any safety or deco stops, then meet on the surface.

Ergo, understanding the possibilities and limitations of CESA are important to me.

It's still taught, but needing to do one means both you and your buddy have screwed up horribly, several times during the same dive. A CESA is better than dying, but is by no means a guaranteed-safe procedure.


Terry

 

[mpgunner]

Great topic all. The first topic I've gone back to the next day to keep reading everyones accounts. I'm going to plan on some practice CESA's with my buddies.

 

[InTheDrink]

Web Monkey,

I always find your posts educational and this is no exception.

However, I do take objection, to paraphrase: If you need to do a CESA, you and your buddy have screwed up horribly.

I used to do both mountaineering (Alps) and rock climbing (local quarries, indoor walls, local mountains). My rock climbing, even though technically a high standard was much safer than my more pedestrian alpineering: because of the lack of objective dangers. The dangers in rock climbing were mostly controllable. In big mountains, dangers (weather etc.) are outside of your control.

Diving is much the same, as far and as limited as I am in assimilating it. Some types of diving have risks that you really need to be prepared for (including poking your buddy in the ribs awareness) and others are more leisurely/safe.

However, even a safe bolted indoor climbing wall can have an incident, so you need to know what your backup/bail out plans are. Likewise with diving, IMO. The buddy system is an important tool but to think that it covers all bases is an oversight in risk management.

I'm taking what you and others say on board, I just can't accept that there is no situation in any environment when buddy separation is the fault of any person.

And, I also need to be realistic and think about how I really dive, as opposed to how I might want to say I dive. I do dive mostly too far separated but I also dive mostly in warm clear waters (sadly not anymore). That's why I want to know bailout limitations. I hope this makes sense. Shouldn't be controversial really. I bet you and other DIR divers when descending don't stay within rib poking distance. But I'll be happy to hear I'm wrong.

But I still think that CESA is an essential skill for me to master. That's just my perspective, as a fairly new diver.

Thanks,
J

 

[Web Monkey]

Web Monkey,

I always find your post educational and this is no exception.

However, I do take objection, to paraphrase: If you need to do a CESA, you and your buddy have screwed up horribly.

If you need to do a CESA, you ran out of gas. This is a pretty big screw-up all by itself. However before you need to do a CESA, you would have also had to lose your buddy or gone diving with a buddy that didn't beleive in gas planning and is also out of gas.

That's pretty high on my screw-up-o-meter.

Terry

 

[Web Monkey]

That's why I want to know bailout limitations. I hope this makes sense. Shouldn't be controversial really. I bet you and other DIR divers when descending don't stay within rib poking distance. But I'll be happy to hear I'm wrong.

I'm not DIR, I'm just allergic to avoidable death.

And actually, yes, we're pretty much always within rib-poking distance, except when descending down a line in high current, at which point we're at "poke you in the back of the head distance"

I suspect if you ever tried to catch up to your buddy without breathing, you would have a new appreciation for how close you should stay.

Terry

 

[InTheDrink]

OK: I'm a minor in this punch up so be gentle, but I think you're being absolutely incorrect in saying that any OOA situation is the fault of PEOPLE. Yes, sure, it is mostly. However, to make a categorical statement like that means that anyone that ever died diving because they ran out of air was their fault. So I think it's a statement worth retracting. Just cos I'm new doesn't mean you can say silly stuff and get away with it.

I've also mentioned the scenarios where unplanned for events can happen. You don't get dressed up to climb K2 when you go to ramble in your local mountain. However, even your local mountain can throw a curve ball that you'll need to deal with, even though you're not dressed appropriately (not even doubles!).

I don't get this 100% buddy reliance. It's one part of your armoury, indeed your most important part for certain types of dives. However, it is one port of call and cannot be an absolute rule. You can get separated in enviromental conditions that makes it impossible to meet up. And if you have an OOA situation, you need Plan B.

I'm really struggling to see where the orthodoxy/dogma is coming from. As always, I'm happy to be enlightened but not at the pain of out of context exerts that haven't looked at what I was saying!
Sorry, but I'm annoyed.

 

[jwalko]

Hey.

I've read quote a few posts about the need to do a CESA and people stating that "you ran out of gas"...where it seems as if the blame is on the diver. I have a bit of a different story, related to equipment failure.

This happened last year in S. Florida. We were diving using a Brownies third lung (hookah system), looking for lobster. This was in moderately rough conditions (3-5' seas), where the waves were constantly pulling on the air hoses. Vis was 10-20'...not good by any means. We were out for about an hour just getting tugged around by the waves. I was in about 30' of water when all of a sudden the tugging and jostling just stopped. It took a second to realize that the Y connector from the supply line had broken. I inhaled, but nothing. I remember very calmly thinking CESA and I slowly swam for the surface, exhaling all the way. I honestly can't remember saying Ahhh on the way up, but training definitely kicked in and I DO remember exhaling all the way to the surface. The worst part wasn't the CESA, it was the 100 yard swim on the surface back to the boat in 3-5' seas.

The lessons learned are that it doesn't have to be Scuba related, and just because you have surface supplied air doesn't mean incidents can't happen

John

 

[Web Monkey]

OK: I'm a minor in this punch up so be gentle, but I think you're being absolutely incorrect in saying that any OOA situation is the fault of PEOPLE. Yes, sure, it is mostly. However, to make a categorical statement like that means that anyone that ever died diving because they ran out of air was their fault. So I think it's a statement worth retracting.

If you can show me how someone can follow all the required safety procedures including gas management and buddy skills and still run out of air and require a CESA, I'll admit that I'm wrong.

Terry

 

[InTheDrink]

Good point well made.

Running out of air can happen for many reasons. So can being separated from a buddy. Likelihood of them happening at the same time? high (escalation of issues).

My (minor) incident, involved regulator failure and extremely strong current. And I am happy in strong current. I don't think it's fair on other divers to categorically say 'all OOA situations where you can't get to your buddy is poor planning/gas management/etc. Worse, I think it's a poor grasp of what you environment can throw at you so I'd suggest (as a novice) you think about that. Never too old to learn etc.