Which service kit for R109?

[oceancurrent]

I have a few ScubaPro R109s. I talked to a friend at a dive store, who can supply me with scubapro service kits but doesn't know which is the right kit for R109. I've heard that the G250 service kit will do the job for R109. However, it looks like ScubaPro currently is offering a G250HP/G250V service kit... I wonder, if the HP/V service kit will do the trick for my R109? Does the HP/V service kit include all the parts needed for a G250/R109? What else do I need in order to convert my R109 to G250?

So far, I have been swapping parts between my R109s and adjusting the lever height to a cracking pressure of about 1.2. However the seats impressions are getting quite deep at this point and so the seats (and some o-rings) are overdue for replacement...

 

[owlbill]

I don't want to sound like an ass or anything but why can't the dive shop ask Scubapro and confirm what kit is required? That would be my suggestion.

FWIW, the Scubapro parts list we have does not show a kit for the 109 2nd stage though I suppose I could dig up schematics and compare part numbers. But that phone call seems so much easier.

 

[redacted]

You will want the service kit for the G200 (not the G200B). My 1997 schematic shows it as an 11.200.041. Scubapro has been messing with their part numbers and the one G200/M50/ADJ kit I have in my stash is an 11.109.040 and that is probably more current. Either of those numbers should work in the order as Scubapro will make the correction.

I went back and re-read your post and now I'm not sure whether you are looking at a 109 which is unbalanced, or a 156 which is the balanced counterpart. Which is it?

 

[oceancurrent]

It's 109 unbalanced. But from what I've read, it can easily be converted to a balanced G250 with a G250 service kit, unless I am mistaken. So the question is if a G250HP/V kit will do the trick or do I need a G250/G200 kit? I think G250HP has more o-rings and stuff than G250 (and a different poppet design), so I wonder if G250HP kits are backwards compatible with G250 (and respectively R109).

 

[Luis H]

You can convert a 109 to a 156 balanced adjustable. At one time everything needed was included in the G250 service kit. They don’t include a new spring or the balancing chamber anymore so you have to buy those separately.

I would convert it since I do like the balanced adjustable concept and the fact that it has a much lighter spring…it indents the seat less when it is not in use.

I don’t know about the HP or the V, but I am under the impression that they all share the same poppet. The major difference is probably some of the case to barrel O-rings, but I am not sure. I am sure one of “the usual suspects” (DA AquaMaster, AWAP, Mattboy, or Couv) will add to that soon.

 

[redacted]

I understand that Scubapro is now providing only the new LP seat & the poppet o-rings without the S-wing poppet in their newest kits so you would have to order the poppet, spring, and balance chamber separately to do the conversion. Or go for the poppet assembly which includes seat & o-rings along with the spring, balance chamber, and kit and save parts for a future service.

I have kept a number of my adjustable 2nds as unbalanced 109s. Once you get the current version of the poppet, you will then used the std hockey puck LP seat used in many Scubapro regs as well as many other mfgrs. Plus you get to flip the seat so you could easily go 6 year or more before you'll need a new one. I store mine with the purge slightly depressed to prevent (delay) engraving. The difference in performance is hardly noticable.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

All of the current SP balanced second stages use the S-wing poppet. The now discontinued X650 used a shorter version but it uses the same seat and the also discontinued Air 1, D300, D350 and D400 use a different poppet altogether as it is a center balanced design.

I agree with Luis that it makes sense to upgrade the "Adjustable" to "Balanced Adjustable" status as the lighter spring greatly prolongs seat life. On the other hand Awap is correct that if you stay with the unbalanced G200, the new G200 poppet uses a repalceable seat that is very generic meaning an inexpensive and easy to find R190 kit will do the job.

Kit wise, there is one correct one and some make it work options:

11-109-045 is the specified kit for the G200, Adjustable and M50 second stages. The number is a dead giveaway as is the label (G200-ADJ-M50). If your tech can't figure that out - be very afraid.

11-254-045 is the standard do everything balanced second stage kit intended for the S600, G250, G250HP, S550, S555, G500, G200B and Balanced Adjustable.

11-261-045 is the G250V kit. I have not played with one yet so I am not sure what the difference is from 11-254-045.

Scubapro has lately changed the packaging on their kits. The 254 kit used to include a new poppet and a balance chamber but first the balance chamber and recently the poppet disappeared replaced by a whole bunch of o-rings, most of which won't fit any single model. it is good news for dealer o-ring stocks, but is bad news for dealer poppet and balance chamber stocks.

Converting an R109 Adjustable to a Balanced Adjustable requires a G250/G250V balance chamber, a G250/G250V Spring and an S-wing poppet assembly as used in the G250V, G250HP, S600, S555, etc.

 

[oceancurrent]

Guys, thank you for all the info. I knew it that the usual suspects would come to the rescue

Luis, splendid job on the Phoenix - I love mine! Thank you so much. I hope Bryan makes another batch this fall.

DA, do you know any place to get the R109 / G200 / G250 parts schematics? The site I know only has the G250HP ones:
http://www.frogkick.dk/manuals/scubapro/Schematics/2. Stage/

awap, I agree that there is some merit to the idea of keeping the regs unbalanced with a flippable seat. I don't depress the purges on mine during storage, since I am weary of deforming the diaphragm cover, which is the one part of R109 which can easily be damaged and is nearly impossible to find a replacement for. Have you ever experienced cover deformation due the depressed storage? Having to choose between extending the life of the seat (easily replaceable) or the the life of the cover (hardly replaceable), wouldn't it make sense to sacrifice the seat?

 

[Luis H]

Guys, thank you for all the info. I knew it that the usual suspects would come to the rescue

Luis, splendid job on the Phoenix - I love mine! Thank you so much. I hope Bryan makes another batch this fall.

DA, do you know any place to get the R109 / G200 / G250 parts schematics? The site I know only has the G250HP ones:
http://www.frogkick.dk/manuals/scubapro/Schematics/2. Stage/

awap, I agree that there is some merit to the idea of keeping the regs unbalanced with a flippable seat. I don't depress the purges on mine during storage, since I am weary of deforming the diaphragm cover, which is the one part of R109 which can easily be damaged and is nearly impossible to find a replacement for. Have you ever experienced cover deformation due the depressed storage? Having to choose between extending the life of the seat (easily replaceable) or the the life of the cover (hardly replaceable), wouldn't it make sense to sacrifice the seat?

If you send me a PM with your email address I can sent you a PDF file of the 1997 diagram for the 109 (I may also have it for the G250). I can also scan older diagrams as far back as the early 70’s. In the 70’s they used totally different numbering system, so it may not be as useful…but I like some of the old drawings.


I am glad you are enjoying your Phoenix. I notice that you don’t live too far away. I am actually going to be at PG Dive and possibly Diver Jim’s tomorrow. Maybe we can go diving sometime.


I do agree with AWAP that there is a lot of merit for the simplicity of the non-pneumatically balanced metal adjustable. There is a lot to be said for having a reversible hockey puck that is also generic.

At this point it looks like Scubapro will continue to support the pneumatically balanced poppet since it is used in most of their regulator, but things can always change. Being able to use generic parts will keep a metal regulator working for a long…long time.

I am also a believer of saving the diaphragm cover (and sacrificing the seat if needed), but it seems that Scubapro occasionally (at least in the very recent past) had made new batches of diaphragm covers for the 109. You may want to ask Margaret at United Divers if she can get you some (mention to her that I sent you).

That being said, it looks like Scubapro is not even supporting many of the parts for the D400 series of regulators anymore (and that regulator was discontinued less than 10 years ago), so their policies may be changing.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

The D400 has been an unwanted stepchild as it is different to service and has basically no parts in common with their other second stages and both played a part in the decision to discontinue it. I supect once SP feels the number of D300' s, D350's and D400's still owned by warranted owners declines to the point it is cheaper to replace them with a new upper end model than to continue supporting the D300-D400 family that they will discontinue support like they did for the Pilot, Air 1 and first generation Air 2 when the numbers of those regs still in service got very small. Those models still are the only second stages SP has ever decided not to continue supporting.

So I agree with you that the D400's future may be bleaker than the R109 or R156 as both of those use (with the exception of purge covers and exhaust tees) current soft parts common to the rest of the Sp line. But I don't think it is a harbinger for a total loss of support for older regs as Sp still seems to adhere to a policy of making improvements or changes in components used in newer models backward compatible to older models. The only real cost to SP is the loss of sales of new regs to customers still using old regs and I suspect (may be hope is a better word) they have the brains to recognize that if they change the practice of long term support all those old reg owners will buy new regs - from some other company - and many new reg customers will then see little advanatge to scubapro over other brands.