Which post for DIR?

[Samir]

Hi James, yep it is the Frogkick, sorry I forgot to mention. But I was talking about DIR in general, and about those two divers that died in the cave, I know there been more so called DIR divers that died but as you already know they suddenly become non DIR. Funny that.

 

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by Samir
I was reading your discussion here on DIR and how everytime there is a stuff up, and suddenly these guys that die are not DIR anymore!!

And thanks for posting... your first one... and on our little thread!

The discussion here was not about DIR divers stuffing up and then suddenly not being DIR because they stuffed up.

The original question (which was actually a troll in the attempt to assert what you have reiterated in your missive above) was simply, to paraphrase: "What post should the long hose be on for DIR."

Well... the answer that it should be on the right post... and all the reasons given... are not a *DIR* position... they are a common sense position. Many divers other than GUE train DIR divers have their long hose on the right post because of these very good reasons. (BTW I see from your profile that you are a cave diver... when divng OC do you use a long hose? What post do you have your long hose on?)

Later in the thread as BMS moved his troll out into the open he made the claim that 2 DIR divers had died because of hose placement. His sole reason for calling them DIR divers was to try to make his point and rant against DIR. Silly if you ask me. There was nothing in the story about these divers that would lead anyone to conclude that they were ever DIR!

I think that if a person wanted to crusade against DIR that it could be done much more effectively by using logic than strawman arguments.... and since none of the anti-DIR crowd seem to be up to the task perhaps I will give it some thought and take a whack and it.

Yes... *Uncle Pug's Anti-DIR Polemic* (a polemic is a reasoned argument of refutation)

But not here... not today... to many other things to do that bear the possibility of success.

 

[roakey]

Originally posted by Samir
I was reading your discussion here on DIR and how every time there is a stuff up, and suddenly these guys that die are not DIR anymore!! So why are they not DIR when this happens??!!

Just because some guys were configured Hogarthian does not make them DIR. A favorite strawman argument of the anti-DIR types is to label folks that were in an accident DIR and then attack it. Nothing new here.

Originally posted by Samir
The problem with JJ and GI , is they like to push their DIR attitude in every corner of the world, and they not making too many friends to quickly.

The fact that you lump JJ and GI together as having the same attitude shows you don't have a clue, sorry.

Originally posted by Samir
A GUE site in Netherlands has posted pictures of DIW divers, some of which are the most experienced explorers out there, and suggest that they are all wrong and will die if not doing the DIR thing.

The claim by the anti-DIR types that the DIR folks say that they're going to die is oft repeated, but the claim is by the antis, not by the DIR folks. We DO claim that your ability to respond to an emergency situation will be less than optimal if you're not DIR and depending on circumstances that could get you killed. Heck, I'll stick my neck out and say that DIR is not a panacea, and you could encounter a situation that's so bad that even full-fledged DIR divers could get killed. DIR simply increases your probability of success.

Originally posted by Samir
they have some goods points on a lot of stuff, but for @#$% sake don't go pushing it down everyones throat.

Now just how does this electronic medium "push it down your throat?" Is there a virus that causes any DIR post to stay on your screen until you've read it completely? Won't allow you to delete DIR mail until it's been read?

There's three ways you can get information from GI and JJ. You can go to a lecture, take a class or read posts on the Internet. The first two can hardly be considered "forced." The third, the Internet, always has the scroll bar or the delete key. Use 'em, if you don't want to read the stuff, but don't claim that it's being forced down your throat.

Roak

Ps: The DIW parade: http://frogkick.nl/diw-parade.htm

 

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by roakey
The DIW parade: http://frogkick.nl/diw-parade.htm

First time I had seen that page....

Samir, now I can see why you guys would be offended by the simple clean well thought out DIR rig....

And I can also understand why you would be offended at having your friends pictures paraded on a website... even though I can't understand the captions I can see why no one would want such pictures made public.

 

[omar]

The DIW parade is quite amusing in my opinion. However, I know for a fact that a few of the pictures on the site are from guys deliberately trying for the Christmas tree effect as a joke.

The guy that maintains the site recently joined a German tech diver mailing list that I belong to. He has been taking a lot of criticism for the site and the inclusion of pictures that were meant as a joke. He has not come up with a good reason for their inclusion.

Samir - can you please positively identify which DIR people died diving. Without a bona fide incident is it just a smoke screen and BS.

omar

 

[Samir]

Sorry for late reply's due to the time zone.
I use a long hose coming from my right post, backup from the left. Like I said DIR setup I have no problems with , I actually adopt some of the config, but I set it up to suit me. I use a manifold and always check the left post after any restriction I encounter. Most Cave divers in Australia prefer independent twins, and some cave you need to be able to carry tanks in one by one. Any way, back to frogkick web site, yes you are right most pictures were taken as a joke, and a friend of mine ( the black and white picture ) was really funny, and when we saw it there we had a good laugh! But other pictures are some of the best divers in Australia that done dives no one ever done before, this is the part that really offends us, beacuse these guys been doing stuff before DIR boys even learned how to walk.
As for deaths, OK this a borad argument, why? well really the only true DIR guys are JJ, GI and their team ( non died thank god ) , but there has been death by so called DIR divers ( I have to dig through old info to find out the details ) but the argument is they are not DIR when they die, but when they alive they are DIR, so go figure. See the way I see it unless you part of WKPP project you will never be DIR, simple.
But what's a pain is the way every so called DIR person try to say that their way is the only way, and most arguments they have are so crap.

Back to the subject, I think if you are running a manifold you ahould be able to check your left post as a second nature, if you can't adopt this, then go independent. You should be able to do this under stress. Do cave courses in US put divers through stress tests? I heard that they do now but intersted to hear from you guys?

 

[VTWarrenG]

Samir,

Nothing you just said hasn't already been said in this thread. Your post added absolutely nothing.

You'll need to show us exactly who these DIR divers were, how you know specifically that they were DIR (not just the equipment they went into the cave with -- we need to know they were using DIR protocols and techniques in the cave at the time of death), and how their death was related to a failure of the DIR system itself.

There are generally only three ways to die underwater:

1) Medical problems.
2) Physical catastrophes (like wall collapse).
3) Equipment failures.

Unfortunately, many divers die because of a very unfortunate fourth mechanism:

4) The inability to use available solutions due to panic or poor planning. Essentially, the diver accidentally kills himself.

The reason you keep hearing that "DIR divers never die" is because you're misunderstading what's said -- no one has ever said DIR makes you immortal.

DIR is a self-consistent, and essentially all-encompassing set of techniques, protocols, and preventive actions. There is no emergency, short of three or more simultaneous equipment failures at maximum depth or penetration, that cannot be solved without loss of life by a properly formulated dive plan, and DIR, when followed, makes that perfect dive plan automatic. DIR seeks to eliminate that fourth issue by providing specific procedures (solutions) to all reasonably possible problems.

If those procedures are followed, the diver will necessarily live. The only way out of the procedure is to fail to follow it -- and the only way to die is to fail to follow the procedure. This is what begets the ill-fated and often misunderstood statement "DIR divers never die."

This isn't a novel approach to doing things, by the way -- lock out-tag out, and zillions of military procedures, are designed carefully to eliminate risks when followed properly.

If you'd like to attack the premise that "properly designed procedures mitigate risk," please go right ahead.

If you'd like to attack the premise that "DIR is a set of properly designed procedures," please go right ahead.

Those are the only two premises available for attack.

- Warren

 

[Samir]

If those procedures are followed, the diver will necessarily live. The only way out of the procedure is

No you right, the idea behind it is right as well, no one says that DIR is not working or what ever, the only problem is they like to think they are the only ones that doing diving in a safe way, and everyone else are a bunch of Strokes that have no idea what they doing!!
We do push dives in caves, on deep wrecks and we prepare for these things, so we set personal rules that we stick by, but we don't go saying they the only way of doing it, I take ideas from everyone, hey I wouldn't be on this forum talking to you guys if I thought I was always right and everyone is wrong, you see what I mean. Look, the story's about DIR death I heard second hand so I will not agree or disagree on this subject, I don't like to be that way I prefer facts, you probably know better on ths subject.

On another note, I'm looking at diving wrecks in the great lakes, which places I should be looking at, who takes divers over there, do they have Helium, and mixing facility's etc.. any information would be gret. cheers.

 

[wetman]

Which lakes will you be near? and where on the lake?

steve

 

[roakey]

Originally posted by Samir
We do push dives in caves, on deep wrecks and we prepare for these things, so we set personal rules that we stick by, but we don't go saying they the only way of doing it...

So let's hear about your system and what you do different from DIR and why you rejected the DIR solution in those cases.

Originally posted by Samir
On another note, I'm looking at diving wrecks in the great lakes, which places I should be looking at, who takes divers over there, do they have Helium, and mixing facility's etc.. any information would be gret. cheers.

Contact Lost Yooper via PM using the mail facility on this board. Looks like he's too busy to post lately.

Roak