Which BP/W system to buy?

[vladimir]

I think you must be mistakenly assuming I am some type of DIR zealot??

I was gently chiding you for the zeal of your posts, yes, but only in the spirit of fun and taking the discussion down a notch. Since we all have to take sides on contentious issues like this, I'm a continuous harness guy, albeit a woefully under-trained one.

 

[fnfalman]

I'll stick with my opinion which happens to coincide with the founders of Dive Rite and Halcyon. If adjustable harnesses are good enough for their BCs, then it's good enough for me. If adjustable harnesses are good enough for them to put their lives on the line while using their own BCs, then there's no better testaments to me.

To the OP, guys like Lamar Hires and Jarrod Jablonski are world famous divers for a reason. I'd take very good heed of the products that their companies put out.

Oh by the way, isn't Jarrod Jablonski one of the heads of GUE as well?

 

[danvolker]

Thanks Dan,
I watched the first 20+ minutes and have already decided DIR is not for me.
I have enought experience to pick and choice the equipment I like.
I don't dive with a team that is configured in the same way. I dive with a varied group of recreational, tech and student divers and as such the DIR system will not be of value to me.
Indeed the problem with DIR is that if you are not with divers that are taught, practiced and configure the same way the concept fails. You can not rely on your buddy in the same way.
DIR is not for everyone and IMHO unless you are buddied with or in a group of DIR divers there are better choices.

Also Dan demonstrated the overhead don and doff of the rig as I have already stated I do not believe that to be the safest method and I have experienced conditions that I would not want to doff my rig at the surface using the overhead manuver.

The shoulder realease has been of great debate but the fact is that the majority of recreational BCD (BP&W and Jacket style) do use releases and they have not become a point of failure that has prompted any action by designers or manufacturers.
Some of us just plain prefer having a release. We have varied reasons. Some of them have already been discuss so there is no reason to go back into that.

So If DIR appeals to you or anyone else enjoy but I'm not one of the new species of underwater sheep.

Rawalker,
Not to get into a pissing match with you over this, but a few points...
DIR can have great value as just a way of thinking about what should or should not happen on a dive, and how you can create a better outcome. DIR got big on the Internet in the late 90s and soon after...for recreational benefits..for people who would be unlikely to ever adopt ALL of DIR's concepts , gear and skills.....it was pushed by thousands of people around the world, to help eliminate the mass marketing nonsense, where new colors of BC's , with bigger pockets and more straps, would help to dictate future training ideas....
You should certainly be able to see some benefits to DIR ideas....the proactive prevention of your buddy running out of air, ideas like horizontal trim ( as opposed to allowing people to swim head up and feet down)...and many, many others.

When George decided to do an overhead donning of the gear, this was George being George....most divers even on WKPP, would have their tank sitting behind them on the boat, and sit into it...and I'm sure you knew that What George did demonstrate though, is that if he was in the water, where it is a weightless environment, the bp/wing system would be effortless to put on or take off.

I would not want anyone to be a sheep about this stuff...and as much as George got a lot of bad press from his internet personna, if you were on a boat with him, and started asking real questions, you would be amazed at the courteous and detailed answers you would get....with solid reasons. In person, this stuff was always about showing exactly why we do things, and letting the results speak--the results the new person hearing this/watching , would get as they tried this.

REgards,
DanV

 

[vladimir]

I am a new diver and am just getting my gear, I have decided that I want to go to a BP/W setup.

You need to train in the gear that you will dive in.

How can a person tell if a harness is right - if they haven't got the knowledge on how to set it up properly or know how to conduct the right techniques with it????

Any time a diver uses new equipment, they should get the appropriate training and advice on how to use it. It doesn't matter whether it is a scooter, twinset, reel, camera or BP&W.

What frustrates me, is when divers neglect to learn how to use the kit properly... and then publicly denounce the equipment as unsafe or unsuitable due to their own self-imposed inability to operate it properly.

The OP most likely has not trained in a bp/w. He probably hasn't got the knowledge to set it up properly. He may not be planning on getting more training and he may not have access to mentors experienced in this configuration. With that in mind, and based on Andy's statements above, perhaps he and other freshly-minted OW divers would be better off in a more standard buoyancy compensator, or maybe even a comfort harness.

Personally, I found adjusting to it completely trivial, at least for the single-tank warm-water diving that I do, but I am willing to defer to Andy's experience on this.

 

[Splitlip]

Dan:
I've seen that video a dozen times.

Is that you w/ GI3?

Here's my suggestion....watch the DIR III video ( free download ) and watch the presentation George gives on how to rig a bp/wing , and how and why everything works on it....this is a classic explanation, it provides excellent answers for all the questions in this thread, and it is focused on recreational diver use of a single tank system, but also goes into the tech uses as well. A nice bonus, is the spectacular Wakulla cave footage at the end of the video...I am pretty sure he will debunk the need for a "comfort harness" or emergency release add on.
www.gladiusinv.com/dir3.wmv

**The presentation of the bp/wing set up begins about 10 minutes in to the video ( so you can walk away and come back in ten minutes after starting the video--if you don't want to hear the overview). If you like the video, you can right click and hit SAVE TARGET AS , I think , to save this to your PC ( I don't expect it to stay on this server forever...).
REgards,
DanV

 

[danvolker]

Dan:
I've seen that video a dozen times.

Is that you w/ GI3?

I'm in the middle.
Regards,
DanV

 

[BB1]

The OP most likely has not trained in a bp/w. He probably hasn't got the knowledge to set it up properly. He may not be planning on getting more training and he may not have access to mentors experienced in this configuration. With that in mind, and based on Andy's statements above, perhaps he and other freshly-minted OW divers would be better off in a more standard buoyancy compensator, or maybe even a comfort harness.

Personally, I found adjusting to it completely trivial, at least for the single-tank warm-water diving that I do, but I am willing to defer to Andy's experience on this.

I had no training in BP/W and 1 quick try dive of a hollis plate and wing that was badly setup with - you guessed it - a comfort harness.

I used the instructions that came with my DSS rig and the information on this web page BP/W setup and had no problems setting it up really. Just take your time!

First time in the water was from the shore in Fiji and spent about an hour on each of our rigs fine tuning the adjustments - getting in and out of your rig is easy after that many times.

I haven't really needed to touch it since though I'm sure that it could be slightly better adjusted!

Why are 2 contentious forum users trying their best to hijack this thread into a broader discussion on DIR etc etc????

If you can't stick to what the OP was asking then move along - :focus: !!

Bennybuoy - shame you arent up here in QLD you could try mine out.....

 

[DevonDiver]

The OP most likely has not trained in a bp/w. He probably hasn't got the knowledge to set it up properly. He may not be planning on getting more training and he may not have access to mentors experienced in this configuration. With that in mind, and based on Andy's statements above, perhaps he and other freshly-minted OW divers would be better off in a more standard buoyancy compensator, or maybe even a comfort harness.

Personally, I found adjusting to it completely trivial, at least for the single-tank warm-water diving that I do, but I am willing to defer to Andy's experience on this.

I found it very easy to adjust to BP&W also. However, over the space of the last 2000 dives I've done a lot of fine tuning and improved things considerably. I'm sure others have had simular experiences. I'm sure other, like me, are happy to pass that experience on. That's why I recommend people to seek out that advice

BP&W isn't something that requires in-depth training. The whole concept behind it is that it is simpler and less complex than a jacket. Getting the equipment configured, weighted and trimmed properly is really important, if a diver is to enjoy the full benefits of it. That's no different than with a jacket BCD... where a diver might seek advice on improving their weighting and buoyancy.

However, I've found that for a diver transfering from a jacket BCD, they can find setting up a BP&W to be a little counter-intuitive. This is especially true with harness fitting... where after years of yanking on BCD straps to tighten a wallowing jacket.... they now need to fit a harness loosely. It is a common mistake for a new BP&W diver to fit their harness over-tight...and then experience considerable difficulty removing and replacing it.

I'm advocating training if a diver encounters a problem with the use of their gear. In this instance, the debate had meandered into a discussion on single-piece harnesses and diver's ability to remove and replace them. If a diver has issues removing and replacing with a single-piece harness, then it is likely that they are doing something wrong with either the removal technqiue or the inital fit of the harness. If that was the case, then it is better rectified by the appropriate training, mentoring or advice, rather than the expense of buying a new comfort harness etc...

There's a saying that "A bad workman blames his tools". That applies to scuba also.

 

[Quero]

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[on_two_wheels]

Because someone utilizes a HOG harness doesn't mean they are a DIR diver or even desire to be.

I think part of the problem is everyone is pointing out the shortfalls of the system they don't use. Certainly every system has potential faults. Some have made it clear that they believe getting a HOG set up off quickly is an issue. However, they haven't acknowledged any shortfalls in any other system. Certainly you all don't believe them to be free of shortfalls or even have fewer than a HOG.

I acknowledged earlier that comfort harnesses definitely have their use, and did for me. Perhaps some people don't like the poll results because they aren't in their favor but fact is, over 4 to 1 divers start with or end up going to the bare webbing vs comfort harness. That's not industry stats....that's our forum members talking. So let's not say everyone on the forum is full of crap, wrong, etc.

AGAIN, back to the OP, view the poll results and consider the most likely route. Won't cost ya much to try a hog harness, THEN switch to a comfort harness if ya want. I actually laced my first backplate using a youtube video. Dived it shortly after and was sold. Not that I'm suggesting skipping training but simply find a mentor, get your gear and go dive.