Where does mentoring end & instructing begin?

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Maybe they were doing drills in 10' of water?
Nope..they were on a charter boat. Boat was to go to Pinta but someone was fishing there so they wen to another deeper wreck.
Biggest thing that bothered me was the guy was bragging about how his cousin shot to the surface from 100'..and how he took his newly certified cousin, just certified the weekend before,only had the 4 training dives under his belt,to 100'. Darwin wust have been sleeping when these 2 went in the water.They may not be so lucky next time.
 
Timely topic ..Last Saturday a customer came in to get 2 nitrox tanks filled. He had a nitrox cert card. An 80 and a steel 120.. Never saw him before. He tells us he took his cousin diving who was certified at Dutch previous weekend. He took his ow certified cousin on a 100' dive off of NJ. His cousin shot to the surface after 16 minutes. He let his cousin use nitrox, which this new certified diver is not certified to use. He was mentoring his cousin. This customer had trouble using an analyzer,knowing mix mod, logging correctly and tagging his mix tags on the tanks. He was certified elsewhere,as his cousin, not by us..can you say an accident looking for a place to happen? When we filled the tanks there was about 200 psi of gas in them, indicating the divers had no reserve if needed. Blind leading the blind..

Good story about bad mentoring. Ever heard any stories about bad instructing?
 
Good story about bad mentoring. Ever heard any stories about bad instructing?
of course there is bad instructing...more than we like to think about.. But at least there is an agency that certified the "bad" instructor and at a minimum he/she had some kind of training. A unknowing person is not as likely to get hurt with a pro hopefully... If the person gets hurt there is liability insurance to help them with expenses.
What do you call a person who graduated last from medical school??
answer; Doctor! works the same in any profession/trade..
 
IMO....

Mentoring is an explicit relationship between individuals to transfer knowledge during the actual practice of an art.

In other words, if I was to hire a junior engineer, I would partner them with a senior engineer and tell the senior engineer to mentor the junior. The junior would be expected to do her own work, to accomplish goals, etc... so would the senior/mentor... but if the mentor observed the junior doing something sub-optimal, or failing to do something that should have been done, the mentor would be expected to step in and lend advice and/or assistance with the purpose of bringing the junior up to speed. Both engineers would be paid for their work...perhaps not the same amount, but paid.

Instruction is an explicit relationship between individuals to transfer knowledge OUTSIDE the actual practice of an art.

In other words, if the junior in the previous example decided that the engineering work she was doing required a better grasp of microcontroller development practices, she could seek instruction in that subject. The instruction would take place outside of her routine work, and would involve exercises intended to develop knowledge and skill rather than intended to produce the normal results of the practice of her art (commercial engineering).

It is entirely possible that an instructor and a mentor are the same person, but the methods are very different.

I have lived the scenario of being given a junior engineer to mentor, and realizing that the person lacked the basic knowledge necessary to do even rudimentary work in our field. I took the situation to my manager, who basically said, "deal with it," so I fell into instructor mode, assigning training exercises and going through a basic curriculum of study designed to bring him up to speed and make him productive. For awhile I instructed instead of mentored. Eventually he learned enough that I could drop back to the mentor role again. To me it was very clear when mentoring ended and instruction began - when his best effort was insufficient to the actual practice of the art we were paid to practice AND the decision was made to train instead of firing him.

I don't think the mentor role can really exist outside of some framework where the mentor is obligated to assist the mentoree. That framework may be social ("pay it forward"), commercial (paid mentoring), familial (learning to work on computers at your mother's elbow), educational (university mentoring), business (my example above), military, etc.... but there seems to be a need for some external force or obligation beyond mutual interest in the practice of an art or skill. Just diving with someone, or playing music with them, or designing rocket ships with them, doesn't make them your mentor or vice versa.

Of course all of the above applies to diving or any other activity.
 
of course there is bad instructing...more than we like to think about.. But at least there is an agency that certified the "bad" instructor and at a minimum he/she had some kind of training. A unknowing person is not as likely to get hurt with a pro hopefully... If the person gets hurt there is liability insurance to help them with expenses.
What do you call a person who graduated last from medical school??
answer; Doctor! works the same in any profession/trade..

Bad instructing and poor instructor choices routinely occur ... and it doesn't always happen in class. An example ... I had a student over this past weekend that recently went on a dive sponsored by his local shop. As we were going through the dive planning curriculum for his class he related to me that several things made him feel uncomfortable about the dives that were led by that shop's instructor. In one case the dive led through a set of pilings. His console got hung up in the pilings, and he was unable to continue moving forward. His buddy ... who was following the instructor ... kept going, leaving a relatively inexperienced diver to disentangle himself and go find them. Neither the buddy nor the instructor noticed he wasn't with them. Fortunately he was able to free himself. Also, when he told me what dive site they had gone to I mentioned that I'm surprised they went there on that day, and in particular at that time, due to a significant tidal ebb. I mentioned that I'm surprised someone didn't get swept across the nearby ferry lane. He sheepishly told me that someone did ... which is incredibly dangerous if the ferry happens to be incoming at the time.

The instructor chose that dive site and scheduled the event ... putting a bunch of relatively inexperienced divers into conditions I wouldn't consider safe. But because he was an instructor, they trusted him. I think if someone who was not an instructor did the same thing, there'd be less willingness to just follow him into those conditions.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post Merged at 09:06 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 08:44 AM ----------

I don't think the mentor role can really exist outside of some framework where the mentor is obligated to assist the mentoree. That framework may be social ("pay it forward"), commercial (paid mentoring), familial (learning to work on computers at your mother's elbow), educational (university mentoring), business (my example above), military, etc.... but there seems to be a need for some external force or obligation beyond mutual interest in the practice of an art or skill. Just diving with someone, or playing music with them, or designing rocket ships with them, doesn't make them your mentor or vice versa.

Whatever you choose to call it, there is much that can be learned by watching someone who knows what they're doing.

I'm reminded of one of my favorite Far Side cartoons, where a flock of geese are walking along in V-formation. Another flock of geese are flying overhead, also in V-formation. One of the geese on the ground is pointing up and exclaiming "Saaaay, look what they're doing."

I got my start in underwater photography by watching someone who ... with a cheap point-n-shoot camera ... consistently took great pictures. He wasn't trying to teach me how to take pictures underwater ... we were just diving. But when it came time for me to take a camera underwater, I had a pretty good idea of what diving skills I needed and how I needed to use them simply because of having watched him and seeing the results. I would call that mentoring.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
... But when it came time for me to take a camera underwater, I had a pretty good idea of what diving skills I needed and how I needed to use them simply because of having watched him and seeing the results. I would call that mentoring.

I would call it social learning. It is an ability shared by pretty much all animals to some degree or another but humans seem uniquely able to learn socially. It's extremely useful, and somewhat dangerous (it's also how fads get started)...but it is not mentoring, any more than a picture book or a magazine photo spread is mentoring.

Now, if the photographer you mentioned had noticed you with a new camera and wandered over to set up his own camera where he could watch you set yours up for the first time, and he occasionally pointed out helpful tips e.g. greasing seals on housings or what have you... that would have the taste of mentoring.
 

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