when to go and where to stay?

[CJ's]

Good grief!

I can't believe what I'm reading. Do you seriously believe that you are not arrogant when you come to our country and deliberately ignore our laws because you believe that we are ignorant and that you know better?

For better or worse the fact of the matter is that the Law of the Cayman Islands states that it is illegal to wear gloves whilst scuba diving. Quite frankly I find your behaviour reprehensible. You basically put your fellow instructors at Ocean Frontiers in an incredibly embarrassing situation by refusing to leave your gloves in your condo. How to make someone feel like s**t! I am disappointed that they did not have the courage to stand up to you and confiscate your gloves but I can understand the horrible position you left them in.

As an Instructor you should realise that it is your duty to set an example to other divers, whether you are actually working at the time or on vacation. Did you manage to obey the speed limits whilst driving your rental car or did you feel that that law should not apply to you either? Better still, why don't you drive on the right hand side of the road next time you come here, you could do us all a big favour.

Next time you feel like breaking a law which doesn't suit you please do it in your own country and then see how far your quote from "TJ" gets you when you are in front of the Judge.

Here's hoping that us ignorant, loser "juniors" never see your gloves again in the Cayman Islands. We certainly don't need your narrow minded dollars that badly.

CJ

 

[gratefuljames]

You need to go back and read my posts, because your 'interpretation' of them is so far off the mark, one wonders into what language you might be attempting to translate them...again, I will wear dive gloves whenever and wherever I like, and you can't stop me...just try to confiscate my property and you'll be reliving the history of the Boston Tea Party from the viewpoint of a cask of tea leaves. I think your judgmental, boorish tirade is reprehensible, so are we now both properly miffed?

You're completely and absolutely missing the point...I encourage all divers to use whatever exposure protection makes them comfortable in the water, and to find the ways and means to use them whenever faced with these ridiculous "laws." The OF gang was happy to let me use them - I hardly said anything other than that they make me comfortable, and no one argued with me in the least: it was a less than 5 minute conversation that hardly rose above a whisper. What horrible position did I leave them in? All they asked me to do was put them on during the descent, with which I happily complied. You like to make wholly unsupported statements, which is not the way to score points in a debate...this is not "driving on the wrong side" or shooting a gun off in a public place or committing any other crime against person or property: this is using dive gloves - look how out of control you are about the subject! Suggesting that I might kill myself to make you happy over dive gloves! Outrageous!

You can't enforce a law that (a) has no purpose; (b) lacks an actus reus other than wearing a piece of dive protection that is sold in stores (it's not heroin or an AK-47); (c) you just can't enforce because there is no one to enforce it! I say boycott people like you who think they are in control of my dive - that ain't the way that it's done, son....no...no...no...(Classic Rock station is playing that song, how funny)....

I love it, I can't use dive gloves, but these Cayman people will probably take you out to dive with spear guns (I mean, as long as you pay them, but only if your American Dollars don't come with dive gloves?) and they'll also fish the sea almost to death to get dinner for the tourists and money (there's that ugly American dollar again) and keep huge sea turtles locked up in pens by the hundreds (and charge people 6.50 very ugly American dollars to see them)...again, plank/speck...get over it...

 

[Drew Sailbum]

... but these Cayman people will take you out to dive with spear guns ...

Anybody want to take this one?

 

[gratefuljames]

Look, gloves don't cause reef damage, bad diving does. What's next, outlawing regulators? That would apparently solve the problem in its entirety if a piece of dive equipment causes reef damage - heck, just outlaw diving altogether. I prefer not to leave my well-being in the hands of a bunch of old men in powdered wigs making laws and regulations (a) that can't be enforced because there is no 'criminal' actus reus; and (b) that know nothing abaout diving and potential exposure or accidental injury protection. It really serves no purpose to continue discussing it, because obviously we are not going to agree on the issue, but thanks for playing.

 

[Rick Murchison]

Hmmm.... well.... gloves.... here's my take.
In Bonaire the park rule is no gloves except on wrecks. So, I don't wear gloves except on wrecks.
I look at the "no gloves" policy as sort of a "string tied to the finger" thing. If I'm not wearing gloves it is a constant reminder to not intentionally touch the reef, and to exercise additional care that I don't accidentally injure my hand with an accidental touch of the reef.
There are plenty of places that have rules or environments that cause me to strike the place off my list of dive sites; a no gloves policy ain't one of 'em
Rick

 

[The Kraken]

Ladies and gentlemen,

It is good and right to have differing opinions and take different stances upon issues. The proposition of one's point and the resulting discussions of those propostions is greatly encouraged . . . when done within the parameters of the TOS of the ScubaBoard and when done in a civil and adult manner.

I think that's all that needs to be said upon the matter.

the Kraken

 

[gratefuljames]

Hmmm.... well.... gloves.... here's my take.
In Bonaire the park rule is no gloves except on wrecks. So, I don't wear gloves except on wrecks.
I look at the "no gloves" policy as sort of a "string tied to the finger" thing. If I'm not wearing gloves it is a constant reminder to not intentionally touch the reef, and to exercise additional care that I don't accidentally injure my hand with an accidental touch of the reef.
There are plenty of places that have rules or environments that cause me to strike the place off my list of dive sites; a no gloves policy ain't one of 'em
Rick

Now that analysis I agree with (in its entirety); however, some of us also have 'cold issues.' Personally, even in 80 degree water my hands (well, my right hand more than my left) can get so cold without exposure protection that it's virtually useless (bad circulation or something), and therefore my personal safety (and that of student divers if I am diving with students) is at issue. I don't want to be in a situation where all of a sudden I need my hand, but don't have the use of it - dive gloves solve that issue, and 100% of the dive ops I dive with understand that and agree that I can use the gloves. So, what's the moral of the story? Blanket rules and regulations, although, yes, a very good idea to remind us to be extra careful, should not take the place for good diving skills and etiquitte because, let's not kid ourselves, it's just as easy to touch and damage something without gloves as it is to do it with gloves...and accidental injuries happen all the time, reef related, jelly fish related, whatever-related whether you are thinking about it or not...have a great day everyone!!!!!

 

[nipi]

(a) that can't be enforced because there is no 'criminal' actus reus;

You continue to completely miss the point James. Of course there is a "'criminal' actus reus". The Law prohibits the wearing of gloves while diving. If you wear gloves while diving you therefore break the Law. Whether or not you (or anyone else here) agrees with the Law is a completely different topic for discussion from your blanket "I will break your Law because I know better" arrogance. If you don't agree with the Law then you should consider how to change it through the proper democratic channels. Until then the Law is the law of these islands and you should have the decency to respect it.

 

[gratefuljames]

It's apparent that you have no idea what 'actus reus' really means and how it is used to interpret a criminal statute. Just identifing "an act" (eg, putting on dive gloves) is not enough to formulate a criminal acts reus. The conduct, or act, must be something that, by its very nature, should be illegal or is morally reprehensible and not subject to any justification. For example, if it were a criminal offense to touch, damage or interfere with any kind of animate or inanimate sea creature or life (which it is and should be) a violation of that statute could be punishable and such punishment not subject to question. However, to attempt to make criminal a wholly legal act (donning an accepted and readily available mode of exposure protection (which, by the way, if you check your dive shops there in good old GC, you will find that most, if not all, actually offer dive gloves for sale. Are they "aiding and abetting" violation of the alleged statute?)) is just simply not enforceable under the British and American legal systems.

Further, if you bothered to consult a dictionary, you would find out that arrogance means: "overbearing pride evidenced by a superior manner toward inferiors." Now, the fact that by using the term you are admitting inferiority by calling me arrogant is nice (but really, you shouldn't be so hard on yourself), but the word is simply inapplicable to the fact situation we have here with respect to the definitions first clause. I simply have a position that I am defending, and whether you agree with it or not is really just irrelevant, and not a matter of my "having overbearing pride" or "acting in a superior matter" regardless of your comparative status.

Finally, I will wear gloves whenever and wherever I like...and you can't stop me! Can you dig it? Good!

 

[The Kraken]

OK.
This thread is about "When to Go and Where to Stay".
Let's get it back on track.
This is not the Harvard School of Law or Aunt Bessie's School for Young Ladies' in the Right and Proper Use of Mr. Webster's Lexicon.

the Kraken