When drills become thrills - incident caught on video

[Scared Silly]

After watching the video and reading through everything posted I have to ask this one question - especially as it does not appear anyone has mentioned it.

From what I saw Ian had a leaking LP inflator yet it does not appear that he had any awareness regarding it until well after ascending. It looks as though it started sometime before the 6 minute mark and he does not deal with it until just before the 8 minute mark. If my observation is correct I find that perhaps most disturbing because it shows a lack of situational awareness or perhaps perceptional narrowing given that Bill was ascending for unknown reasons. Inflator hoses are for the most part right in front of one face so a leak of what I saw should be damn near obvious especially if one is dumping air.

When coming up from depth one should be dumping air and have no need to add air (unless too much was dumped). If one is properly buoyant at depth a few kicks off the bottom and one should be able ascend without hardly a kick floating all the way up and dumping air along the way. Once on the surface I do add some extra gas only because now my wing is partially out of the water thus doing me no good.

Ian was adding air at the safety stop - which should have been unnecessary. Thus to me there was a deficiency in a basic skill - proper buoyancy control.

 

[billmas]

From what I saw Ian had a leaking LP inflator yet it does not appear that he had any awareness regarding it until well after ascending. It looks as though it started sometime before the 6 minute mark and he does not deal with it until just before the 8 minute mark.

In the de-brief, Ian explained that the leak started while he was down beside the bus. As I started heading up, he had just started dealing with the leak, in wiggling the connector thinking he would re-seat it, the LP inflate hose came off - he saw that it was still leaking (when it shouldn't be) and chose not to reconnect it as a precaution (I wouldn't want the risk of a runaway inflate either).

If my observation is correct I find that perhaps most disturbing because it shows a lack of situational awareness or perhaps perceptional narrowing given that Bill was ascending for unknown reasons.

We were both dealing with our own problems at almost the same time - and a result, unaware of each others.
.

When coming up from depth one should be dumping air and have no need to add air (unless too much was dumped). If one is properly buoyant at depth a few kicks off the bottom and one should be able ascend without hardly a kick floating all the way up and dumping air along the way. Once on the surface I do add some extra gas only because now my wing is partially out of the water thus doing me no good.

Ian was adding air at the safety stop - which should have been unnecessary. Thus to me there was a deficiency in a basic skill - proper buoyancy control.

I've had more time to talk to Ian about the event, and if I were to re-subtitle that video I would change the subtitle when he was orally inflating. Ian was thinking ahead, starting to orally inflate his wing ready for the surface. This was around the same time as I realised that we would both be orally inflating.

So, yes he spotted the problem much earlier than it appears, and the adding air was for a different reason than it first appears.

Hth
Bill

 

[TONY CHANEY]

Bill, exactly as I thought. I for one will admit to focusing on my own problem and not noticing my buddy's problem. I use Poseidon regs and was not sure if the bubbles were coming from from his reg. (side exhaust on the same side was the inflator) or if he was having trouble at the same time as you were trying to signal him.

 

[Deep South Divers]

Hi Bill!

Sorry I haven't been around for a couple of days... Been slammed busy diving. Then I rebuilt the fill panel in my shop. Then had dive club. Then dove some more. I haven't really had time to follow this like I wanted to.

There's a lot to respond to that's happened here in the past couple of days, and I can't afford to spend my day on a computer... But I'll do my best to touch base about the main topics.

In summary

1 Complaceny. This is our local lake...

(snip)

2 Poor/Weak Signalling technique. Some have ...

(snip)

3 Lack of urgency. I've included...

(snip)

5 [-]That you can slow down the rate of air loss by kinking the hose. Noted and learnt[/-].

Yes, you can... And no, it's not magic or some sort of "Boy Comic" stuff or "beyond the realm of super-duper technical cave commercial recreational sport deep decompression rescue" diving that has something to do with "modern" vs. "antique" scuba gear either. I'd have done the same with a garden hose that exploded if I was trying to save the water.

I wasn't suggesting it as a solution to the problem of freeflow... I just said that it could be done and yes, it would slow or stop the freeflow while a diver figured out a resolve to the problem. I mentioned it because that's what I would have done while addressing the issue and/or getting to the surface. I also mentioned that I would have fixed the second stage underwater first, but kinked the hose and ascended if that didn't work.

That said, while I disagree with the idea that you should just "forget about" the ability to kink a hose, I've already said that it's not a real solution and therefore not on any agency's training list, as far as I know. It offers no permanent solution, but it might save you some gas, reduce the urgency of the situation, and prevent water entry into the first stage.

Enough said about that... I don't want to bother to argue a point that's not in any agency's official training. You did right - finding out that it can be done and taking note of it. Done with the subject.

Some Background

(snip)

The Lake

(snip)

The Descent

Here's what I see you doing, Bill... Just a casual observation:

I see that you had a lot of issues on this dive, and have posted a video for all to critique, in the interest of hearing people's opinions and suggestions. When they point out the issues and suggest solutions, you justify your actions and practices and essentially ignore the solutions that are given to you. Perhaps the word "ignore" is too harsh... Perhaps you hear them, consider them, and then find reasons to not use them and instead choose to continue to do things as you've always done.

Guess what? No change = no change, regardless of what country you're in.

We all dive in water that is cold sometimes, and we all dive in water with less than perfect visibility. Yesterday I was diving in true blackwater conditions... I literally could not read my guages if I pressed them up against my mask. The current ran about 5 knots one way, slacked for about 20 minutes, and ran about 5 knots the other way. Our tidal differences were about 11' yesterday. (3 1/2 meters to you Redcoats ).

I didn't hold onto the line as I descended. Sure, I used a cave line as a guideline, but I didn't descend on it. Had the vis been as good as in your video and there'd been no current, I'd have been watching it while descending and ascending, but not touching it - that way I could see my buddy and him see me so we could be aware of what each other was doing. If you and your buddy had done this, things would have gone a lot differently for both of you in a variety of ways.

You can justify your actions all you want, and you can sit here and tell us all that your buddy is the greatest buddy in the world and you can claim that the UK only passes the best regulators and the fact that they meet "minimum performance criteria" is really important and that there was nothing wrong with your regs... But if you look at the video, you can plainly see that yes, there was something wrong with both of your and your buddy's regs. You being in denial about it does not make it true.

Here's how to solve a few major issues (I don't have the time to get into everything today): Get a set of regs that work. These don't. I don't care how you do that - fix the ones that you've got, buy new ones - whatever. If you were to ask me (and you did), then I would tell you that a great set of new, round-faced, downstream-style regulators - and either identical or nearly identical to your buddy's - would be my choice. If you're going to sit and justify and tell us all that there was nothing wrong with your regs, then I can't make any suggestions that are going to help you.

Ditto with your buddy... He may be the greatest guy in the world, but he had no idea that you were having a freeflow, had zero situational awareness, and actually cost you several minutes in getting back to the surface. I wouldn't call that a "great dive buddy" as you have said. It is what it is... Stick with him or don't... Or both of y'all get some training and learn how to BE "great dive buddies." But don't sit here and blow smoke and tell us that he is when we can plainly see that he is not. Denial doesn't look good on you.

Your skill set is lacking. This is not your fault, so please don't get defensive or deny it. "It is what it is," and already you know there's something wrong, else you wouldn't be here soliciting opinions. Quit being in denial about it so that you can move on and fix it. Clearly you are going to need to seek training OTHER than what you've already had - and I would suggest it with an agency world-reknowned for quality of training. Your diving doesn't affect me - that is, I don't care what agency you pick or whether or not you choose to do it. It simply doesn't matter to me - you're not my dive buddy. But you did ask, so it's only logical that if you ask me, I'm going to tell you who I think would best solve your issues that I see in this video... GUE. Take the advice or leave it - it doesn't matter to me. However, if you don't get some different training, then you're bound to continue to have the same issues, and that's all there is to it. A solution requires change - take it or leave it. Change or don't. I don't have any reason to say that, other than "you asked."

I'm not trying to be a jerk about this... In fact, am actually trying to be very nice about it. I won't be offended if you or someone else has another opinion. But to me, "it is what it is," and what I see is a real need for help in a lot of areas - and some regs that work.

You can discount DIR as a "style" and argue with me all day long that you like a different "style"... What "style" are you using now? Is it working for you?

*I* don't think it's working for you. I think it may be time to try a different "style." Of course, that's just my opinion, since you asked.

Safety Stop - Yes or No?
Some slightly contradictory information here but I think it is agency related, ie just the nature of our differing training levels / training agencies.[

Really? Are you kidding? Is this your idea of "style?"

There once was a pilot flying an airplane. The airplane started leaking fuel... Somehow, the lines from the gas tank to the engine ruptured, and he began to pump fuel out of the plane into the atmosphere.

He wasn't up very high... Maybe 5000 feet or so... But was immediately aware of the problem as it spewed fuel all over the place. Basically, the plane's tanks were going to be empty in about 90 seconds. He'd only been airborne for six minutes or so.

...So the pilot decided to do a few touch and go landings.

When he landed the airplane, all of the other pilots - sfter recovering from their shock at the idea of him doing optional skill building exercises in the middle of an emergency - asked him why he didn't land immediately. "Oh, it depends on the agency that you're with - and the 'style' of the flying."

Seriously?

And now you want to discuss it and ask our opinion?

Common Kit Config
Yes this an age old debate, I dived with probably 20 different divers over the past 12 months so even if I went to a standard GUE config - I wouldn't get any benefit as none of the others are GUE. Ie, the problem of not knowing each others gear / diving different configs would still exist.

Someone has to start it... If you don't want to do GUE "style," then great... Make up your own. But I will warn you that GUE's been doing it for decades, and their suggestions might be a really great place to start.

"Drill Over" Signals
The advice has been both that (I am paraphrasing here)....

• Don't use a signal for drill over
• Use a signal for drill over

Why the lack of urgency?
This has been raised a few times - and is a very valid point. This I think requires some introspection on my part. I will certainly give it some thought but I'll also explain my thought processes as the incident played out.

Is there a signal for "Get the hell outta the water NOW?" Signal, go... The same as what a pilot should do in an emergency. We all respect people for being able to make decisions quickly and correctly... But when it's debatable (as you seem to think it is) on what the correct methodology is to deal with the fact that you're going to be out of gas in about 90 seconds, "quickly" would be an improvement. You should have either fixed the issue or bolted. The same goes for the reg issue as the communication issue as any other issue you experienced in the water that day - fix it or get out of there.

Can you see the pilot hesitating? Suddenly, there's fuel, the engine's gonna stop running in like 90 seconds... And he says, "Hey, let's get introspective about this."

Replacing the line
I'd love to, I've spoken to Ian about it often but it's not our lake.

So? It's not the pilot's sky either. So what? Go clear the crap out of there and put a descent line on that buoy and quit making excuses. Then practice ascents and descents without touching it so that you can learn to dive and not climb a rope.

I gotta go get back in the water. Listen, man... Go fix this or don't... Quit wasting your time with "introspection" or asking people's opinions who might not know what they're talking about, might not know that they don't know, or might be a 13 year-old girl who is just ROFL at the fact that she told you to get a Spare Air and you believed her. Get some regs that work and go get some training before you get hurt.

 

[grf88]

Lots of excellent advice in this thread. I do have a concern about the idea of kinking the hose in case of a freeflow. If the freeflow is a result of the 1st stage icing or otherwise failing kinking the hose is likely to cause the other 2nd stage to also freeflow or worst case scenario cause the inflator to overpressure and start filling the BC automatically compounding an already stressful situation and potentially causing an uncontrolled ascent.

In light of Deep South Divers last post I wanted to repeat the concern I raised in Post 59. Kinking the hose when it is a 2nd stage freeflow will probably do no harm and could save some gas. Kinking the hose when the freeflow is the result of the 1st stage icing or otherwise failing could leave you in a world of hurt. If the other 2nd doesn't start freeflowing, which is the case with some 2nd's the inflator can start to freeflow on either your BC or drysuit or possibly both sending you to the surface in an uncontrolled ascent. Since it is impossible to tell whether it is the 1st or 2nd that is the source of the problem kinking the hose is a bad idea.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Hi Tony,



No, he's not. We're probably (not definitely!) going to write up our own accounts, in an "as they happened" format, strictly a blow by blow account of our own views of the incident as it happened. This will be difficult, because we've both now seen the video - naturally our memories will be skewed as a result.

It will likely be even less realistic from me, as whether I like it or not, I've now had sight of the questions it raises, and will likely be trying to answer them subconsciously.

If we do get this done, I think it will be an incredible learning resource for everyone.
- What Bill was thinking
- What Ian was thinking
- What actually happened (the video)
I think that depending on which one of the above is seen first, the viewer would likely form different opinions.

I've actually been contacted by a few instructors who would like the untitled video to show to their students as part of a "identify the mistakes" and "identify the positives" training session.

I'm not sure I want to be that famous

I'll try to keep you all informed if we ever manage to get our written, contemporary accounts together, and if Ian is as relaxed as I am about posting it to a public forum.

You're the first poster looking to see the account from Ian's eyes, rather than from me or the video. That indicates a desire for knowledge - and that is a desire I have a lot of respect for.

With Kind Regards
Bill

I actually think this would be useful. Allowing people to see what it looks like when things go wrong, could be very useful. The fact that you were able to record a pretty decent video of the whole dive is remarkable. I think that removal of the text in the video itself would be desirable if it was to be used as a training aid.

 

[Tao of the Dive]

For your buddy to have been thinking there was a drill, he was sure ineffective at actually drilling with you. I mean, for him to think you were running a drill by thumbing the dive, then to just sit there sucking wind...I'd be in the market for a new "buddy." That kind of buddy I think we can all do without. From the video, I received no impression that he was drilling with or without you. Perhaps he was intent on keeping that mess of rope away from his shiny blue suicide clip. Perhaps the silt you dislodged on your way down as you unnecessarily went hand over hand on a silty rope was snowing upon his head, preventing him from taking notice of your plight. There are some fundamental issues which need immediate redress if you two plan on diving anytime soon, and none of them were addressed in your lessons learned snippet at the end of the vid. The fundamental issues are training, equipment, and familiarity with your buddies equipment, not to mention communication. You do not need a signal to signify that the drill is over, if you thumb the dive, that's good enough for me, and darn well should be good enough for you. If i thumb the dive, and nobody takes effective action I plan on making myself scarce, unless I'm in a situation where I absolutely need their intervention in order to dodge the bullet. My buddy and I have an agreement, at least once per dive trip, one of us will thumb a dive. Granted, we usually try to do so on a less interesting part of the dive, but we thumb it. If we feel a certain drill needs attention, we work that into the drill. But the core of that thumbing of the dive is to get us used to the fact that a thumb can come at any time, and what needs to take place for that to be done safely. Unfortunately for you guys, the thumb came, and went, and nobody cared or noticed. You even said in your narration of the vid that you elected to stay since you were safer together than apart. If that were true, then he would have noticed your crisis, and took action. For your statement to be true, some effort on his part would need to be undertaken to prove that you were safer together. If he is truly a good buddy, and realizes that you are nowhere around, he will search, then thumb it himself. But you elected to stay, so instead of one fatality, we could have ended up with two. NEVER make yourself the second fatality, but in this case, you came close to maybe making yourself the first fatality.

The key thing here, is that the incident pit kept getting skirted dangerously close. And with each skirting of the pit, another bad decision was made. So you are both supposed to be in crisis mode, and you decide to use what remaining gas you may or may not have, for a safety stop you certainly did not need. It was essentially a bounce dive. You were not down long enough to accumulate any obligation. Your ascent was also slow enough, because again ,you felt compelled to go hand over hand on the silty rope, that there shouldn't have been much in the way of any complications. Even in the vid, you "narrate" that you were running the numbers. Not sure what numbers you thought you needed to run at that point, but you should have been in crisis management mode, not dive mode.

I'm sort of of the mind that many things you said in the video were done to save face; your buddy thought you were drilling, you were running numbers... but the truth is a little different I think. It is commendable that you have put the incident out there for all to critique. This is how people learn. But the two people who really need to learn from it cannot learn anything so long as you are deluding yourself as to you or your partners intentions or efforts. This was for a leadership class. But I do not think you or your buddy are ready from what I'm seeing here. Even taking into account that your number of dives here on Scubaboard may not be accurate, I do not think you are ready. I'm in the area of 200 dives, and I'm not ready to lead or teach anyone anything. I'm just a diver, not even an extraordinary one. But that said, my buddy is my 13 year old son, who also watched your video, and had similar critiques as mine and other posters. And I saw him dive circles around his dive-master on his checkout dives. As abhorrent as I am about being responsible for other people, its still easier diving a cave or cavern with my oldest son, and teaching him through the trials and errors of myself, and others, and through actual dive training. But all that to say, please rethink and refocus on your fundamentals, don't try the zero to hero route. It's not doing you or anyone you might lead any justice.

As an addendum, my son and I are switching to HOG rigs, because he is my son, and I want the safest setup we can possibly have. As a dedicated team, we may even go DIR at some point. I know someone didn't think it appropriate to recommend a school of thought or training, but the principles those groups adhere to are a good step in a good direction for you and your buddy.

 

[Cave Diver]

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[TONY CHANEY]

Hi Bill!

Sorry I haven't been around for a couple of days. There's a lot to respond to that's happened here in the past couple of days, and I can't afford to spend my day on a computer.

Hell, you have writen more than the OP. It would have created a better thread had you stayed away!

I also mentioned that I would have fixed the second stage underwater first....

There once was a pilot flying an airplane. The airplane started leaking fuel... Somehow, the lines from the gas tank to the engine ruptured, and he began to pump fuel out of the plane into the atmosphere. He wasn't up very high... Maybe 5000 feet or so... But was immediately aware of the problem as it spewed fuel all over the place. Basically, the plane's tanks were going to be empty in about 90 seconds. He'd only been airborne for six minutes or so. So the pilot decided to do a few touch and go landings. When he landed the airplane, all of the other pilots - sfter recovering from their shock at the idea of him doing optional skill building exercises in the middle of an emergency - asked him why he didn't land immediately. "Oh, it depends on the agency that you're with - and the 'style' of the flying."
Seriously?

Seriously? With you manner of handling the situation the pilot should have left the cockpit and went and tried to repair the fuel situation in air. Thank God the pilots I worked with for 20 years in Marine Corps avaiation did not listen to this BS. Cold water, thick gloves, numb fingers, dark and this is the time to perform reg repair 101? BS. He had no deco and was shallow with life saving gas freeflowing. You get the hell to the surface ASAP. Much like your thinking that the pilot should have landed the A/C ASAP.

Is there a signal for "Get the hell outta the water NOW?" Signal, go... The same as what a pilot should do in an emergency. We all respect people for being able to make decisions quickly and correctly... But when it's debatable (as you seem to think it is) on what the correct methodology is to deal with the fact that you're going to be out of gas in about 90 seconds, "quickly" would be an improvement. You should have either fixed the issue or bolted. Suddenly, there's fuel, the engine's gonna stop running in like 90 seconds... And he says, "Hey, let's get introspective about this."

Let me get this right you accuse him of "thinking that it is debatable" but you ask him to debate if the problem can be fixed or to bolt. In reallity...it's hard and fast decision that save lives not time waisted on debatable ideas.

Quit wasting your time with "introspection" or asking people's opinions who might not know what they're talking about.

It appears to me that he did ask for opinions and he clearly stated that the two of them made mistakes and things that they will change or will think about changing. This thought process is exactly how proper operating procedures are writen in blood. Thank God he had the insight to handle the situation, the mind set to ensure that it does not happen again and the damn strength to post on here looking for advice. I commend him and glad that we are not reading about another death or perhaps two. It is divers like you that make other divers not want to post due to the fact of being ridiculed. Hell, you even called him a Redcoat.

Way to SeaJay, you made all of us very proud of how you treat our brother and sisters across the pond. Just like you treat fellow Americans who don't always agree with you opinions.

 

[Deep South Divers]

Good Lord.

I was joking with him about the Redcoat comment. Bill, my apologies if that offended you. I didn't mean anything by it.

Very well then, Tony.