When drills become thrills - incident caught on video

[jago]

The urgency of dealing with a leak from a LP hose is far more compelling than from say a HP one; however, kinking the hose is far from the best practice. Since you had a redundant gas source (good choice, I have just wrapped up an article on this topic for underwater journal) the correct action would have been to stop the leak by turning the hand wheel on your main cylinder until it was shut. Following this, one has the choics of re-opening slowly which is some cases may fix the FF... or leaving it shut and moving on. Kinking the hose is foolishness and straight out of the Boys Own Comic manual to scuba diving... very 1970 era. Ignore it please.

Moreover, kinking the hose is only efficient if it's a 2nd stage free-flow (it can happen in very silty water).

 

[ahava]

Moreover, kinking the hose is only efficient if it's a 2nd stage free-flow (it can happen in very silty water).

What can happen in very silty water

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I believe much of the advice and a good number of the suggestions your openness has brought out are sound and best wishes to you and your buddy in working to tighten up your technique and protocols; however, as much as I wanted to stay away from posting anything in this thread, this bull**** about kinking the hose has to be responded to.

The option to kink a LP hose in an attempt to stop or slow down gas hemorrhage predates modern scuba gear and is certainly well beyond the scope of recreational diving... certainly sport diving and probably tech diving.

The urgency of dealing with a leak from a LP hose is far more compelling than from say a HP one; however, kinking the hose is far from the best practice. Since you had a redundant gas source (good choice, I have just wrapped up an article on this topic for underwater journal) the correct action would have been to stop the leak by turning the hand wheel on your main cylinder until it was shut. Following this, one has the choics of re-opening slowly which is some cases may fix the FF... or leaving it shut and moving on. Kinking the hose is foolishness and straight out of the Boys Own Comic manual to scuba diving... very 1970 era. Ignore it please.

You really think that telling people with the skill level, situational awareness, buoyancy control, buddy communication skills, and the need to literally climb hand-over-hand, up (and down) a vertical line (in still water with no current) that the best course of action is to shut down his main tank at depth and thereby eliminate the ability to inflate the dry suit AND the BC via the power inflator??? Really?

The same guy who posts on his video that he it is better to be bent on the surface than drowned at 10 feet (while he is breathing from a pony bottle at 10 feet and has been down for 5 minutes at 60 feet)?? The guys who can't communicate the occurrence of the most common scuba failure over a period of MINUTES... These are the people that you recommend shutting down their main tank at depth?

Would you have the same advice, if the single tank diver had no pony bottle?

My advice to these two guys is to head up from 60 feet as fast as is safe and shut the tank off when you have the BC inflated and you are "safe' on the surface. To mess around with anything else and to compromise the ability to control buoyancy in the manner they are accustomed to is unnecessarily dangerous. Remember, these are the guys who indicated in their video (after careful reflection) that they could NOT share air from a single second stage in a true emergency.

 

[billmas]

Hi DumpsterDiver,

Remember, these are the guys who indicated in their video (after careful reflection) that they could NOT share air from a single second stage in a true emergency.

I'm guessing you've watched the video, scanned through the first few posts following it, and then posted. If so, it is something I've been guilty of too.

The issue of could we buddy breath versus would we buddy breath at 5m, against the background of our training level was covered in my summary back on page six or so.

On the other hand, and reading between the lines, I think you're also suggesting that some of the input offered hasn't taken into account our level of training - on that, yes you're right - and it has also been covered in the same summary. I think that is something which I, as the OP, and others as those offering input have managed to put in perspective and get a reasonable take on.

The issue of climbing hand over hand, has also been covered in the same summary, and unless you read that summary you will never understand why that technique will/must continue.

I think you might see a pattern here, but the weak communication skills are one of the main learning points we have arrived at in that very same summary.

My advice to these two guys is to head up from 60 feet as fast as is safe and shut the tank off when you have the BC inflated and you are "safe' on the surface. To mess around with anything else and to compromise the ability to control buoyancy in the manner they are accustomed to is unnecessarily dangerous

On the other hand, that closing piece of advice generally conforms to the advice (and learning - mentioned in the summary) received on here.

I'm guessing, that at this stage, you have no idea whether I'm a ten dive diver, just passed OW, or 1000 dive diver with Fundies, GUE, Tec1, Mod1 etc? It is just a guess, but please go back and read the summary and I think you'll see why it is probably an educated guess.

Furthermore, in my summary I've mentioned about what I believe to be the purpose of this forum, and the nature of the posts herein. I won't repeat myself now, but I offer that view and opinion in a very clear manner. That view is not only unchanged, but unfortunately reinforced by your post.

By the way, did I mention the summary?

With Kind Regards
Bill

 

[ahava]

You really think that telling people with the skill level, situational awareness, buoyancy control, buddy communication skills, and the need to literally climb hand-over-hand, up (and down) a vertical line (in still water with no current) that the best course of action is to shut down his main tank at depth and thereby eliminate the ability to inflate the dry suit AND the BC via the power inflator??? Really?
QUOTE]

Well, on ascent they shouldn't need to add anything to drysuit/Bcd/wing or whatever. If you have the ability to shut down you own back gas (which you should) I woulld switch to pony, shut down back, reopen back to see if problem remains and head for surface. You have a rope there so why not use it to help control ascent if you would like. One less thing you have to think about. I have used many ropes in still water with no current, not because I had to, but just because they were there.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

You really think that telling people with the skill level, situational awareness, buoyancy control, buddy communication skills, and the need to literally climb hand-over-hand, up (and down) a vertical line (in still water with no current) that the best course of action is to shut down his main tank at depth and thereby eliminate the ability to inflate the dry suit AND the BC via the power inflator??? Really?
QUOTE]

Well, on ascent they shouldn't need to add anything to drysuit/Bcd/wing or whatever. If you have the ability to shut down you own back gas (which you should) I woulld switch to pony, shut down back, reopen back to see if problem remains and head for surface. You have a rope there so why not use it to help control ascent if you would like. One less thing you have to think about. I have used many ropes in still water with no current, not because I had to, but just because they were there.

You don't use the rope because it screws the visibility!!!! You don't use the rope because you are training yourself to learn how to dive and you don't rely on the crutch of a physical guideline like that in a lake with no currents and no waves...(assuming you are trying to learn to control your buoyancy)

In an emergency, MAYBE you use the rope to help with the ascent, but in this case the rope was two lines and had horizontal pieces attached that are entanglement hazards, I would probably not have used it.

As for not having to add air to the BC on ascent....??Again.. seriously??? You never seen people over compensate and dump too much air on ascent, especially when over stressed? Then what? They start sinking and can't inflate the Bc again without removing their regulator? Those are EXACTLY the kinds of potential problems to avoid, especially if the divers don't have redundant air supplies... that is why i asked if the recommendation was to shut down, if they were not diving with a pony bottle.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Hi DumpsterDiver,


I'm guessing you've watched the video, scanned through the first few posts following it, and then posted. If so, it is something I've been guilty of too.

The issue of could we buddy breath versus would we buddy breath at 5m, against the background of our training level was covered in my summary back on page six or so.

On the other hand, and reading between the lines, I think you're also suggesting that some of the input offered hasn't taken into account our level of training - on that, yes you're right - and it has also been covered in the same summary. I think that is something which I, as the OP, and others as those offering input have managed to put in perspective and get a reasonable take on.

The issue of climbing hand over hand, has also been covered in the same summary, and unless you read that summary you will never understand why that technique will/must continue.

I think you might see a pattern here, but the weak communication skills are one of the main learning points we have arrived at in that very same summary.


On the other hand, that closing piece of advice generally conforms to the advice (and learning - mentioned in the summary) received on here.

I'm guessing, that at this stage, you have no idea whether I'm a ten dive diver, just passed OW, or 1000 dive diver with Fundies, GUE, Tec1, Mod1 etc? It is just a guess, but please go back and read the summary and I think you'll see why it is probably an educated guess.

Furthermore, in my summary I've mentioned about what I believe to be the purpose of this forum, and the nature of the posts herein. I won't repeat myself now, but I offer that view and opinion in a very clear manner. That view is not only unchanged, but unfortunately reinforced by your post.

By the way, did I mention the summary?

With Kind Regards
Bill

I've now read your summary. You did a good job with that. I have a problem with people suggesting that inexpereinced divers shut their tanks down underwater in a real emergency.

As for you comment that hand over hand climbing of ropes, MUST continue???? That is plain silly. You will be much better served to learn to do an ascent without touching any line.... what happens when you are diving in the ocean and you can't find an ascent line...If your training and mind set remains the same. this too will be some sort of "emergency" when in reality it should just be an embarrassing annoyance. Think hard about, the "monkey on the line" idea.

 

[Doc Harry]

What strikes me about this video is that the diver with the camera keeps shining his dive light directly into the face of his buddy.

 

[TSandM]

Bill explained that, where they dive in open water, they are never not in current, so they have to do all their descents and ascents hanging into the line. I'm still unsure as to why that makes doing it in a lake a good idea, but he seems convinced of it.

 

[billmas]

I have a problem with people suggesting that inexpereinced divers shut their tanks down underwater in a real emergency.

Understood and agree - but I think I would amend that statement slightly, and add training into the question, really only from the experience gained on this thread.

As for you comment that hand over hand climbing of ropes, MUST continue???? That is plain silly. You will be much better served to learn to do an ascent without touching any line.... what happens when you are diving in the ocean and you can't find an ascent line...If your training and mind set remains the same. this too will be some sort of "emergency" when in reality it should just be an embarrassing annoyance. Think hard about, the "monkey on the line" idea.

Ah - my summary wasn't clear on that, line descents are the norm over here while line ascents are the exception. I don't think it would add too much to the thread (or more importantly the incident) to get side tracked onto the whys and wherefores of UK diving techniques, but I take your point about ascending up that particular line with it's already identified hazards.

In that case, yes, I was using it as a crutch - and given the same position, I'd probably do so again. My buddy and I did discuss in the debrief - had this been in the Ocean, how I'd have dealt with it differently.

Kind Regards
Bill