TONY CHANEY
Contributor
Agree Bill, more specifics needed.
When drills become thrills - incident caught on video
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Hi All,
I think one thing missing from the video is just how dark the bottom is. If you look again at the video at around the 2:55 mark, Ian is no more than a few feet away from me and totally misses the free flowing reg and me going to Octo. Honestly it really is that dark.
It's almost an advert for the GoPro - how it picks up the white balance and gets good video even in those conditions (and believe me all - I am no fan of a GoPro!).
We both realise we made our own screw ups, but you really have to put it against a background of diving in pitch black.
I've dived a lot with Ian - and that video doesn't show him (or me) at our best. I can only assure you that out of all the people I dive with, Ian is the man I want next to me in water. He is dependable, predictable and rock solid. My view is that the combination of pitch black, the confusion over is it a drill or not, all contributed to the first two or three 'lost minutes' where we weren't aware of each others problems.
I'm not making excuses for us - we knew what to expect down there, we should have known better and factored in the possibility of a problem occuring while practising problems
It is the first time I've ever been dissapointed by Ian's response to a signal, but in context I can see how it came about. We won't allow it to happen again
Kind Regards
Bill
P.S. But keep the comments coming, we're learning from all (okay maybe most) of them.
I think one thing missing from the video is just how dark the bottom is. If you look again at the video at around the 2:55 mark, Ian is no more than a few feet away from me and totally misses the free flowing reg and me going to Octo. Honestly it really is that dark.
It's almost an advert for the GoPro - how it picks up the white balance and gets good video even in those conditions (and believe me all - I am no fan of a GoPro!).
We both realise we made our own screw ups, but you really have to put it against a background of diving in pitch black.
I've dived a lot with Ian - and that video doesn't show him (or me) at our best. I can only assure you that out of all the people I dive with, Ian is the man I want next to me in water. He is dependable, predictable and rock solid. My view is that the combination of pitch black, the confusion over is it a drill or not, all contributed to the first two or three 'lost minutes' where we weren't aware of each others problems.
I'm not making excuses for us - we knew what to expect down there, we should have known better and factored in the possibility of a problem occuring while practising problems
It is the first time I've ever been dissapointed by Ian's response to a signal, but in context I can see how it came about. We won't allow it to happen again
Kind Regards
Bill
P.S. But keep the comments coming, we're learning from all (okay maybe most) of them.
PfcAJ
Contributor
Bill,
I'm going to try to answer some of JapanDiver's comments from my point of view.
Your light is a powerful tool when its dark. I dive in the dark all the time. Use your light to illuminate your clear and concise hand signals. I recommend Cave Diving Communications by Prosser. It has some excellent handsignals that convey the intended message quickly. Its a cheap paperback and worth reading.
Lynne hit on the descent skill earlier. Strive to descend horizontally and hands free, facing each other. No current, so no need to hold the line. Using it as a visual reference is fine for now, but holding it doesn't do you any good in the long run.
Neither of you guys were really in a position to help each other due to lack of familiarity and competency with your (and your buddy's) equipment. He had no clue what reg you were on, what was broken, and you had no clue how to fix his problem, and he couldn't fix it himself. Throwing extra gas (in the form of double or a pony) at it is just a bandaid on a much larger problem. You guys need to spend some time learning about each other's equipment. Its time well spent.
As far as decision making, you guys clearly made it. However, if this event occurred at a different point (deeper, later in the dive, away from the line, whatever), the outcome might not have been as good. If you have a critical failure like you did, you need to make SURE your buddy knows its happening, and you need to start egress and/or corrective actions. Waiting around isn't going to make it any better. Have some discussions about what your response should be to a variety of failures: Freeflow, runaway inflater (BC and drysuit), lost mask, out of gas, entanglement, etc. This will provide you guys with a baseline response to problems and will help reduce stress when it happens.
Practice will take things like this from "oh my god this is a huge problem" to "crap, now we have to go home".
HTH,
AJ
I'm going to try to answer some of JapanDiver's comments from my point of view.
Your light is a powerful tool when its dark. I dive in the dark all the time. Use your light to illuminate your clear and concise hand signals. I recommend Cave Diving Communications by Prosser. It has some excellent handsignals that convey the intended message quickly. Its a cheap paperback and worth reading.
Lynne hit on the descent skill earlier. Strive to descend horizontally and hands free, facing each other. No current, so no need to hold the line. Using it as a visual reference is fine for now, but holding it doesn't do you any good in the long run.
Neither of you guys were really in a position to help each other due to lack of familiarity and competency with your (and your buddy's) equipment. He had no clue what reg you were on, what was broken, and you had no clue how to fix his problem, and he couldn't fix it himself. Throwing extra gas (in the form of double or a pony) at it is just a bandaid on a much larger problem. You guys need to spend some time learning about each other's equipment. Its time well spent.
As far as decision making, you guys clearly made it. However, if this event occurred at a different point (deeper, later in the dive, away from the line, whatever), the outcome might not have been as good. If you have a critical failure like you did, you need to make SURE your buddy knows its happening, and you need to start egress and/or corrective actions. Waiting around isn't going to make it any better. Have some discussions about what your response should be to a variety of failures: Freeflow, runaway inflater (BC and drysuit), lost mask, out of gas, entanglement, etc. This will provide you guys with a baseline response to problems and will help reduce stress when it happens.
Practice will take things like this from "oh my god this is a huge problem" to "crap, now we have to go home".
HTH,
AJ
Agree with what you said here except releasing the weight belt. #1. It appears he was able to orally inflate to maintain bouyancy. #2 why would you want to take the uncontrolled elevator ride to the surface. #3 Who's to say he was wearing a weight belt. Wearing doubles and if he is has a steel backplate, he might not need any weight. ( I fall into that catagory)
DevonDiver
N/A
I'd call this 'Situational Denial'.... and I think it's pretty common. Basically, there's nothing wrong with situational awareness... but the brain refuses to acknowledge the severity of that situation and doesn't place you into an emergency resolution mindset. The same thing happens in all sorts of emergencies, not just in scuba.
Knowing when you are in an emergency and acting effectively, with speed, to resolve it is a skill that goes far beyond what is taught on the average rescue course. In fact, the primary emphasis when learning scuba, at most levels, is to remain calm and controlled. That's good advice, but can actually work against the diver, if it leads them to lose a sense of urgency. For the average person, who doesn't encounter critical situations in their day-to-day life, it's a whole new mental capability that needs to be developed.
TONY CHANEY
Contributor
Well you might be right but I dive Poseidon's and ther can release gas rather fast. An I really do not think that it would be a great threat to go directly to the surface from 9 feet. and as for the weight belt...he might have the weights placed directly on the harness but if you really took a look at the video he has yellow weights around his waist. FWIW, I don't wear extra weight with my 120's. But he is wearing weights.
This entire dive is a CF - first we start a dive with someone in doubles who by your earlier statement can not manipulate the valves- mistake. You both are hanging on a line to do a simple descent in a no current situation- that show poor skills or planning or both. Total lack of comms- you decide in your mind at 2:27 that you have a problem that should end the dive- this does not occur due to bad comms and decision making. At no time during the dive was there any attempt to contain your air loss or your buddies. There is an isolation manifold which could have saved some of your buddies air and simply turning off your own valve and switching to the pony immediately would have saved quite a bit of air, if turned off for a bit there is also a good chance of stopping a free flow in cold water when turned back on - or you can feather your valve to save air if the free flow does not stop.
A safety stop for two minutes on a dive that was only 2 minutes at 15 meters if I read your post correctly - really when you are both losing air at a serious rate and have no more back ups to switch to and you are doing a safety stop after that time on the bottom????
Although viz was low on this dive it is by no means the worst that can be had and low viz to no viz comm should be second nature to dive leaders if those are the normal local conditions. If these are normal local conditions, in your OP you said that viz was better than normal, hopefully for leadership level divers these conditions would not be all that challenging. If you find that these conditions are very challenging or to challenging to handle what should have been a simple call the dive and go up when problems developed you are not ready for leadership level diving locally.
I do not know about others but I do not need to see a free flow to know it is happening- I can hear it. A free flow is pretty noisy and an attentive buddy should pick that up almost immediately.
A safety stop for two minutes on a dive that was only 2 minutes at 15 meters if I read your post correctly - really when you are both losing air at a serious rate and have no more back ups to switch to and you are doing a safety stop after that time on the bottom????
Although viz was low on this dive it is by no means the worst that can be had and low viz to no viz comm should be second nature to dive leaders if those are the normal local conditions. If these are normal local conditions, in your OP you said that viz was better than normal, hopefully for leadership level divers these conditions would not be all that challenging. If you find that these conditions are very challenging or to challenging to handle what should have been a simple call the dive and go up when problems developed you are not ready for leadership level diving locally.
I do not know about others but I do not need to see a free flow to know it is happening- I can hear it. A free flow is pretty noisy and an attentive buddy should pick that up almost immediately.
Deep South Divers
Contributor
It's great that everyone here is addressing the issues from a skills standpoint, because theres definitely some issues that need to be addressed.
Skills and gear, however, go hand in hand, and as much as I hate blaming the gear, there's some huge gear issues here that need to be addressed before you have a hope at developing the skill set that you need to handle emergency situations such as this.
Bill, you asked for it, so I'm gonna tell ya. I've been accused recently of lacking tact, so forgive me if I come across harshly. I will do my best to convey my message honestly without offending you.
Firstly, as I understand what is going on in the video, you had a second stage freeflow out of control on you. It was the one in your mouth - your primary second stage. Your buddy had a bad leak develop at what looks to be the HP hose at the console... Yet you say in the video that he had disconnected the LP inflator from his BC (which looks like a backplate and wing to me - unclear). Thus, there are at least two, maybe three separate failures in a time span of something like three minutes.
Who is maintaining your gear, and where did you get it from? How do you account for multiple failures in such a short period of time?
Let me be frank here: I am torn between talking to you about the multitude of issues and running far, far away from this thread.
Let's start with that and talk about that first. The problem was the gear - the regulators, your life support - and proper maintenance and choice of gear is a skill that is clearly lacking.
...So you tell us... What's the issue there?
Skills and gear, however, go hand in hand, and as much as I hate blaming the gear, there's some huge gear issues here that need to be addressed before you have a hope at developing the skill set that you need to handle emergency situations such as this.
Bill, you asked for it, so I'm gonna tell ya. I've been accused recently of lacking tact, so forgive me if I come across harshly. I will do my best to convey my message honestly without offending you.
Firstly, as I understand what is going on in the video, you had a second stage freeflow out of control on you. It was the one in your mouth - your primary second stage. Your buddy had a bad leak develop at what looks to be the HP hose at the console... Yet you say in the video that he had disconnected the LP inflator from his BC (which looks like a backplate and wing to me - unclear). Thus, there are at least two, maybe three separate failures in a time span of something like three minutes.
Who is maintaining your gear, and where did you get it from? How do you account for multiple failures in such a short period of time?
Let me be frank here: I am torn between talking to you about the multitude of issues and running far, far away from this thread.
Let's start with that and talk about that first. The problem was the gear - the regulators, your life support - and proper maintenance and choice of gear is a skill that is clearly lacking.
...So you tell us... What's the issue there?
Hi Seajay,
Ians regs are Poseidon Jetstreams, they (and his wing) were serviced around about November last year - I can't remember exactly, I just recall him complaining about how much beer money he'd spent on servicing
We both use different LDS's - hence I don't think maintenance was the issue.
Well I hope you don't mate - it sounds like you have useful and constructive input (even if it will be harsh!). How else would we learn without some open honest debate.
I'm quite meticulous about looking after my gear, cleaning & inspection etc. Ie, in my mind, my BCD has had the same life and work as my regs, so when I put my regs into the LDS later today for inspection (try to identify the fault) and a service, the BCD will go in too as a precaution.
Kind Regards
Bill
Honest, constructive criticism is welcome - no matter how harsh! But please be gentle with me
Yes, that about sums it up (and yes, he's on a BP and wing, I'm on a standard BCD) but just to clarify, his console and corrugated hose are clipped together under his left arm, so while it might appear to be a leak at the console, it was definitely the LPI inflator hose.
That is a very good point, but I don't think poor maintenance is an issue. My regs were bought new in Summer 2010 from an Oceanic Main dealer, they had their first annual service in approx August last year. With this manufacturer and their lifetime warranty, all consumables in the regs (o rings etc) are replaced as a matter of course at the service - regardless of whether they appear worn or not.
Ians regs are Poseidon Jetstreams, they (and his wing) were serviced around about November last year - I can't remember exactly, I just recall him complaining about how much beer money he'd spent on servicing
We both use different LDS's - hence I don't think maintenance was the issue.
Well I hope you don't mate - it sounds like you have useful and constructive input (even if it will be harsh!). How else would we learn without some open honest debate.
I think I had a one in a thousand freeflow, Ian had the one in a thousand LPI failure, we were very unlucky to get them at the same time (the one in a million).
I'm quite meticulous about looking after my gear, cleaning & inspection etc. Ie, in my mind, my BCD has had the same life and work as my regs, so when I put my regs into the LDS later today for inspection (try to identify the fault) and a service, the BCD will go in too as a precaution.
Kind Regards
Bill
Hi Bill,
thanks for posting this very honest account and video of a near-miss. Very glad that it ended well. Lots of interesting comments have been posted already; I am wondering why you did not keep the freeflowing reg in your mouth and let the excess air escape from the corner of your mouth. That way it wouldn't have dangled above you waiting to get trapped in those loose lines, and at least some of that air would have been useful to you. And by the way, are you using a single first stage on that 15L?
thanks for posting this very honest account and video of a near-miss. Very glad that it ended well. Lots of interesting comments have been posted already; I am wondering why you did not keep the freeflowing reg in your mouth and let the excess air escape from the corner of your mouth. That way it wouldn't have dangled above you waiting to get trapped in those loose lines, and at least some of that air would have been useful to you. And by the way, are you using a single first stage on that 15L?
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