When are you actually a Cave Diver

[Rick Murchison]

Originally posted by maddiver
As the title suggests you've got to be doing it, participation is the key to efficiency and technique retainment. You don't see the military running a drill, getting it right, and then assuming from then on it will go as the one drill did, do you?

Unfortunately, yes.. budget constraints and cuts; parts shortages; manning deficiencies - President Bush is working hard to correct the near destruction of the military by the previous administration, but it will take years. That, however, is another issue entirely.

Rick the GUE requirements would not have allowed these guys to have cards if they didn't have the skills and the continuing dive requirement is a realistic way of making sure that those skills don't break down too much.

These guys' damage to the cave is is not a "lack of skills" problem. It is a "duty of care"; an "attitude" problem. From your description of these divers, they'll be desecrating speleothems and clay formations regardless of their frequency of diving - they just don't care. Perhaps their attitude could be trained out of 'em... one could hope. But I think it's a lot like raising children - if you don't get 'em to have the right beliefs, attitudes and respect in their initial training, the chances of achieving that downstream are pretty slim.

You cannot tell me that if you have laid off for even a month that your skills would not need refining.

True. I can't and I won't. So are you proposing a monthly minimum or you lose your card? Even if you wouldn't, there are those who would. And setting frequency requirements at any level is just the "camel's nose under the tent."

That's the first thing I do when on a cave diving trip is some warm up dives. Simply due the fact that I don't do it five days a week like I once did.

I said " but rather for self control and self limitations on that 'first in awhile' dive." Means the same thing... or at least it's meant to.

Its about commitment. Time, Energy, Effort, and Money.

No, this issue is about who's in charge; who decides. And one must consider secondary effects whenever one proposes the abrogation of freedom to control by some bureaucracy. Just how would you word your rule? X number of cave dives in Y time? Sounds simple enough - but think of the "corners of the envelope" - if those are the only dives a diver makes would it be enough? And if you made that enough, what about the diver that makes hundreds of non-cave dives? Would that be an adequate substitute? Depends on what kinds of dives they are, doesn't it? Or would you word it "X number of dives in Y time, Z of which must be cave dives?" And then there's the added risk factor. A diver facing a rescinded card would likely try to pack in the minimums in the last few days of the required interval, and may do something a lot worse than mess up some clay.

You do not participate in cave diving all the time so this 'requirement' would endanger the way that you have come to know and participate in cave diving, would it not?

Yes, it would. And it would serve no purpose other than to be yet another pointless bureaucratic infringement on my life. I personally exercise great care in my caving. I precede each cave dive after a layoff with extensive planning, practice, and warm-up dives to rehone those skills I haven't been able to practice on a regular basis in my regular diving. Then I keep my dive very conservative. I am in charge of my caving and I care about safety and site preservation.

So I can see your concern but the argument that you are as skilled and fluid as you used to be after a time lapse is simple untrue.

Which time lapse would that be? This time of year I dive nearly every day - somewhere. As for skilled, I'm nowhere near as skilled as many cavers I've met - I'm workin' on it. But I'm better than many who spend a whole lot more time in caves than I do. Because I care.
Bottom line - I agree that caving carries with it a responsibility to preserve the cave, and that cavers should take the necessary steps to assure they do so. I do not agree that the way to achieve this is through more oversight.
Rick

 

[Divesherpa]

I am not one to give up personal freedoms, but without some level of self regulation, the discussion of who is a cave diver is a moot point. Caves are closing fast. There aren't many left open in Florida compared to 10 years ago. If it takes some form of self regulation to insure that we can continue to gain access to these locations than so be it.
Before I get drilled about the fine print in the contract, I am not an elected or appointed member for any of the agencies, so the amount of regulation would depend on those that were. As a member of the NSS-CDS and NACD I would vote and voice my opinion, but attempt to accept the self regulatory "sanctions" imposed.
Simple solution would be for self regulation, but the errors of the few cost the many.

I don't like it any more than you men!

 

[Krisscuba]

I have been certified since 74, a couple dozen instructor certs.

If you have to ask when or if you are a cave diver, you are not.

I love to avern dive, I do not cave dive.

If youare not sure of what you are doing, ...you will become a cadavier