What people think of SCUBA training

[boulderjohn]

Also, do you perceive a benefit to having the two standards versus just one standard that covers all the way to open water?

What I'm wondering is, if you just have one standard that covers open water, then an instructor could choose to offer a course that is only pool and conduct it as a DSD that is simply never completed. In which case, is there a benefit to making that officially a pool-only DSD for some reason?

The standards really aren't that different. It is just what can be done if the class is pool only and what can be done if it involves open water.

You are really, really, really trying to make this into a huge deal, as you typically do whenever trying to assert the superiority of your agency over all things in Heaven and Earth.

 

[stuartv]

The standards really aren't that different. It is just what can be done if the class is pool only and what can be done if it involves open water.

You are really, really, really trying to make this into a huge deal, as you typically do whenever trying to assert the superiority of your agency over all things in Heaven and Earth.

Ummm. Actually, I was trying to get your input in preparation to another email to SDI HQ to suggest that maybe they should revise the SDP to match how PADI does it (not that I would specifically tell them "PADI"). I already emailed them today with some other concerns I have about the current SDP course standards.

I didn't want to suggest to SDI to have 2 standards (pool-only vs OW) if there is no real tangible benefit.

 

[Diver0001]

I can see arguments both ways. But, my current thought is that, as an instructor now, I would not choose to trust people with virtually no training to be completely in the hands of a DM.

You're equating being a DM with being inexperienced and/or incompetent. This is not my experience at all. When I became a DM I had 1200 dives going in. I was a DM for years. I was happy in that role. I was technically trained and technically active and more experienced as a diver then every single instructor I assisted between 2002 and 2007. Believe me when I say that instructors I assisted trusted people with little or no experience to be alone with me.

These days I'm an instructor and I work with DM's who are similarly experienced and there is not a single fiber in my being that would "write them off" the way you do. Every DM has their own diving experience and they have their own life experience. For example, if someone is *only* a DM but they are an ER doctor in their day job does that make them untrustworthy? Personally I don't think so. You would tend to want to write them off.... I wouldn't dare to.

R..

 

[stuartv]

You're equating being a DM with being inexperienced and/or incompetent.

No. I am speaking in general terms, regarding standards from an agency. Which means I could be talking about ANY DM, not any specific DM. And when I'm talking about any, generic DM, I stand with the statement I made earlier.

If it makes it easier for you, I am equating being a DM with the minimum requirements to hold that title (because I was speaking in general terms, regarding agency standards). Obviously, there are DMs who vastly exceed the minimum requirements.

 

[Diver0001]

yeah... that's what I thought. If it "makes it easier for you" then I would suggest looking a little further and considering the real-world skills your DM's have. They are more than just a number of dives and a C-card. You appear to be completely unaware of that.

R..

 

[TMHeimer]

One of the DMs I was on OW courses with was far more experienced than several of the instructors on staff. He just never got around to doing his IDC (he finally did).
I never taught DSD because the pay didn't equal the gas money. If it did, despite my slant against DSD, I probably would have trusted myself to do a good job. But I would've only done it in the pool, since it obviously presents easier logistics.

 

[Diver0001]

One of the DMs I was on OW courses with was far more experienced than several of the instructors on staff. He just never got around to doing his IDC (he finally did).
I never taught DSD because the pay didn't equal the gas money. If it did, despite my slant against DSD, I probably would have trusted myself to do a good job. But I would've only done it in the pool, since it obviously presents easier logistics.

Indeed. The arrogance of some instructors is ... well ... sickening.

R..

 

[Littlerayray]

Everything is relative it depends on the instructor and how much the instructor wants to know
An ow instructor afaic should know about all the different embolisms causes and preventions as well as the 4 laws Charles Boyle Dalton henry. As well as knowing the 2 different types of first stages how they work as well as how the second stages work and the main parts

 

[stuartv]

Indeed. The arrogance of some instructors is ... well ... sickening.

R..

No doubt. Astonishing, in fact.

Everything is relative it depends on the instructor and how much the instructor wants to know
An ow instructor afaic should know about all the different embolisms causes and preventions as well as the 4 laws Charles Boyle Dalton henry. As well as knowing the 2 different types of first stages how they work as well as how the second stages work and the main parts

It's not just instructors. In general, when it comes to diving knowledge stuff like that, I think DMs have to know just as much as Instructors. The step up from DM to Instructor is not about learning more physics or deco theory.

The problem I see with saying that a DM can lead a DSD completely on their own is that you can be a DM with as little as 60 dives, total. Thus why I kind of lean towards the side of the fence that SDI has landed on - which is that DMs are not allowed to conduct DSDs (or, SDPs, in SDI terminology) on their own. There are obviously loads of DMs in the world that could very safely conduct a DSD. But, when it comes to establishing agency standards, they have to base it on the lowest common denominator.

 

[taimen]

Nevertheless they persist. The owner of the shop is a VERY good entrepreneur by any standard. He knows his stuff and has really hit a chord with potential customers because this course sells -- as bad as it sounds when I describe it from an instructor's perspective -- like pancakes. People WANT to just "get er done" and are even willing to pay MORE money (per hour) for this kind of training than they do for qualitatively much better training.

I still doubt these students choose this course because the really want this accelerated course with low standards.
They just do not have the instructors perspective for choosing their course.

My educated guess is that they choose this operator because they are good in doing business. They have nice professionally produces web pages with course schedules, pricing and convincing course descriptions readily available.
Someone always answers the phone or emails AND is able to answer all questions a potential OW student may have.
All this seems very professional and convincing and I really can't blame the students for choosing the operator that seems most professional when they search for dive school without knowing anything about scuba diving.