What makes us think we can trust any of them

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WarmWaterDiver:
I don't see this as a computer vs. brain thread - I see this as a DCS avoidance thread. But your title using the worjd "trust" and "them" with a link to a magazine article on dive computers lead me to think you were interested to know which could be absolutely trusted. The answer is none. However, there should be statistical data available to show probabilities one one algorithm vs. another - but I have yet to see that data publicly posted anywhere (not just this thread or board).

There is an article you may find interesting in a UK diving magazine titled "Which DoYou Trust" and the emphasis is on "You" for personal choice, rather than "We" in your title, for more than one invidual to choose to "Trust".

http://www.divernet.com/equipment/computers2003/intro.shtml

This topic of different algorithms yielding different results is not quite new - here's the earlier dated article in the UK magazine on comparisons - it's from 1995 - 10 years ago now. There are more algorithms to test and compare against now though (RGBM wasn't a dive computer algorithm in use at that time in the article for example).

http://www.divernet.com/gear/comps995.htm

The last four sentences in thaat 1995 article still hold true today. There are no commercially available dive computers monitoring users' body conditions directly. That article also uses the word "you" in similar context to the 2003 article.

Different automobile manufacturers post things like braking distance on the various models manufactured as an analogy, but I don't necessarily "trust" those figures in light of tire wear, driver skill, road conditions, etc. all being important variables that aren't absolutes. I haven't seen an article on an auto accident where someone was declared to not be at fault because their vehicle didn't stop within the published braking distance. It's the individual operator and choices made that are the key.

For dive computers and liability, I think far more weight is put on the verbiage in the owners' manual than in comparison against competitiors' algorithms.


Thank you for those links.
What I guess I was stating in the beginning was my own ignorance. :) Before I read that first article I had no idea the differences between algorythms was so great.
 
Uncle Pug:
It really isn't complicated. Just shape your dive curve right

What exactly should this mean to the average recreational diver?

I think I understand the intent of your statement but where does one get the skills to "shape their dive curve"? :huh:
 
Snowbear, it's a good thing to talk about proper stops and ascents. What I don't understand is how why you seem to think that proper stops and ascents are easier with a bottom timer rather than a computer.
 
Diver0001:
Looks like you spent 40 min on the wreck on the first dive and 40 minutes on teh up-line during the second dive..... :14:
R..
:lol: :lol:

Sorry, that was funny although not directed at anybody in particular. But it illustrates a point.
 
Web Monkey:
It's not always that simple, since some computers are more liberal than some tables, as well as the other way around.

Also, if you're diving with a computer, you should still know how to use tables, however if you're diving a multi-level profile, it's going to be very difficult to use tables as "a backup" for that particular dive, unless you have detailed information about your dive profile.

FWIW, the "What if your computer breaks during the dive?" problem isn't actually a very common occurance, and as long as you're diving within the "No Decompression Limits", what actually happens is that you notice your computer is hosed, do a nice slow ascent, a safety stop and end the dive.

Even without hard numbers, you still need to know enough about the tables to have an idea when your computer has lost it's mind, when to take it's advice and when to ignore it. For example, after a relatively shallow 45 minute nitrox dive, my buddy's computer told her she had something like a 15 minute decompression obligation, which was clearly insane.

Also, the flip side of "computers may fail" is that "people may fail". There's a risk on both sides. It's certainly easy enough to lose track of what group you're in while flipping over a dive table, just as it's possible for a computer to fail. In either case, you need to have a good idea what's reasonable, so you can tell when something is wrong.

Terry

Now I'm a bit confused. I realize that all tables are not the same, but I have a hard time seeing that a table that measures based on rounding up your deepest depth, and rounding up your time, could be more liberal than a computer that calculates time at depth.

For example, on a 40 minute dive, I spend 10 minutes at 75 feet, glide up to 50 feet, spend a while there, move up to 30 feet, spend some more time there, finish with a 5 minute stop at 15 feet and get out. Using the table, I calculate my PG using 75 feet for 40 minutes. No I definately didn't stay there for 40 minutes, but according to the table, I did. My PG based on what my computer would tell me, or the wheel if I could figure that out one day ;), would be much more liberal. How can it not be?!?

My first quote about a computer failing was really to cover any failure, for example, your example about the shallow nitrox dive. Clearly the computer failed. Should you rely on it? Do you really trust it after it told you that there was a long decompression stop? Did you not perform the decompression stop just to be safe, and then check it out some other way? I think I would check with the manufacturer if something like that popped up on my screen.

And also, I think it's good practice to use the tables, just to keep their use fresh in your mind.
 
Charlie99:
Snowbear, it's a good thing to talk about proper stops and ascents. What I don't understand is how why you seem to think that proper stops and ascents are easier with a bottom timer rather than a computer.
I'll let her answer for her.

But my computer (YMMV) doesn't give proper ascents, so if you're using mine and following it and have perfect buoyancy skills, you can jump right to 15' no problem.

What's great about this thread is, that no mater where you stand, it makes us all start talking about and thinking about safe profiles. Even when i was a 100& computer follower, reading these kinds of posts made me more aware -and that is always a positive.

Good thread.
 
Rick Inman:
But my computer (YMMV) doesn't give proper ascents, so if you're using mine and following it and have perfect buoyancy skills, you can jump right to 15' no problem.
Rick, Rick, Rick ....... you are missing the point.

NO computer that I know of controls the ascent other than by setting a ceiling depth for a mandatory decompression dive. Even when in mandatory decompression, there is nothing that says one must race right up to the ceiling depth. In a dive within NDL, you don't even have a ceiling depth confusing you and tricking you into a fast ascent. In other words, there isn't ANY ascent info for you to follow in a no-stop aka NDL dive.

Snowbear's earlier comment of
Snowbear:
my body likes the way I'm shaping my dive curves a whole lot better than how the Suunto shaped them.
is another example of that same, very basic confusion.

This reminds of a conversation I had years ago with a guy who claimed that setting speed limits on highways was dangerous. He felt that, in bad weather and bad road conditions, that drivers would try to go at the speed limit and therefore speed limits were inherently dangerous.

--------------------------

Doing a proper ascent and stops is a great idea! Just don't confuse that with what tool you use to do it.

Here's the question again --- WHY DO YOU THINK IT IS EASIER TO PERFORM A PROPER ASCENT / PROPER DIVE PROFILE WITH A BOTTOM TIMER THAN A COMPUTER?
 
TheDivingPreacher:
What exactly should this mean to the average recreational diver?

I think I understand the intent of your statement but where does one get the skills to "shape their dive curve"? :huh:

Yeah. That's the crux, isn't it. It's easy to understand that the "right" curve, whatever that it, is better for you but when you ask the question "How" the answer is usually that it's either too subtle or complicated to explain on the internet. At least the technique that UP is talking about won't get explained to you.

Let me just try to give you a rough sketch of something that you could apply to most of your dives. It's not quite what UP is talking about but it's easy enough to understand and is probably a big improvement over what you were already taught. Keep in mind that this is the Rob Turner method and has nothing at all to do with what UP is talking about despite certain similarities.

The first and most important thing is that the graph of your dive profile should look a little like a big check-mark. The profile that Snowbear posted (the second one) is an example but the tail (shallow bit) could be longer. If you don't have the discipline to make your profile look like that then you have to work on this step first. Connected to this is the realisation that off-gassing is a process that will happen on every dive. and that firm control over your ascent is the key to getting the most out of this process. Some folks say taht "every dive is a deco dive", which isn't true but to get the most out of your ascent every dive should should be *approached* like a deco dive. That means lots of time shallow to compensate for the time you spent deep.

The second thing is to realise that ascents are all about ascent rates. Not stops. ascent rates need to differ depending on your depth. The deeper you are when you start your ascent, the faster you can ascend to a point. The closer you get to the surface, the slower you need to go.

So two questions remain. How much time shallow (and a related question, *what* is shallow)? and how to stage the ascent to make it look like a big check mark. There are various different ways to do that. Some of them depend on certain strict parameters like choice of gasses at different depths but to make things simple lets just assume you're making no-stop dives (not over the NDL) using air.

On recreational dives, lets define a couple of "bands" or bandwidths of depths. 40-18 metres, 18-9 metres and 9 meters to the surface. These bands correspond fairly well to the on/off gassing that happens in these areas. from 9 metres to the surface you can spend nearly all day without getting into a deco situation. From 6 metres to the surface you can literally spend all day (which we'll get back to in a moment). From 9 to 18 metres you start to ongass but not drastically and deeper than 18 metres ongassing accelerates dramatically.

The converse is also true. Ascending from 40-18 metres the amount of offgassing you do is limited. It really starts to pick up from 18-9 metres and from 9 metres to the surface you're offgassing fairly rapidly.

So how to make a check mark. The first order of business is to get yourself off the bottom and up to the 18 metre zone. You can't do this any faster than 10 metres per minute or you're going too fast. If you go slower than 10 metres per min, you're also going too slow and will continue to on-gass.

From 18 to 9 metres you should ascend slower. The difference in depth is 9 metres so 3 metres per min is a nice round number. You can go faster, up to 9 metres per min but there is no reason and it doesn't help you.

From 9 metres to the surface you need to slow your ascent even more. Let's just say for the sake of argument that it should take you as long to go from 9 metres to the surface as the total time you spend deeper than 18 metres. So on a dive for 20 minutes to 30 metres, you should spend 20 minutes in the shallow zone. Of course on a no-stop dive the model says you don't *need* to spend this time in the shallow zone but you will feel better after the dive if you do. Just picking that number gives you an easy handle for making the tail end of the profile look like a nice checkmark.

So..... now the mysterious part..... how do you guarantee these ascent rates?

Answer: you stop along the way.

Say you start from 40 metres and you're on your way to 18. Say you start your ascent at 8 minutes. When you pass 30 metres (10 metres shallower) your clock should flip to 9 minutes. If it doesn't, then you wait at 30 metres until it does. At 20 metres you wait until the clock flips to 10. If it were me I would probably just go straight from 20 to 18 and wait there but that's just me being lazy. If you're too slow and your clock says 12 when you get to 18 metres then you have to add this to your bottom time. That's why it's never good to leave the bottom when your NDL says zero. Leave when it reads 2 minutes and you'll have a little buffer.

Now from 18 to 9 metres you want 3 metres per minute. Do the same thing. Go from 18 to 15 to 12 to 9 and put 1 minute stops in at each of these depths. Guaranteed 3 metres per minute.

From 9 metres to the surface you want to spend 10 minutes because that's how long you were deeper than 18 metres. You can spread this over 2 or three depths depending on how you like to do it. You could spend 1/3 of the time at 9 metres (3 minutes) and 2/3 of the time at 6 metres (7 minutes) or split it in 3 stops of 3 or 4 minutes and spend 3 min at 9 metres, 3 meters at 6 meters and 4 at 4.5 metres, for example. The idea is taht you spend more time at about 5 metres than you do at 9. Remember, once you're shallower than 6 metres you can extend the stop for as long as you like without additional ongassing.

Another example.

Making a checkmark from a 17 minute dive to 30 metres.

30 metres - 17 min
20 metres - 18 min
18 metres - 19 min
15 m 20 min
12 m 21 min
9 m 22 min
6 m 28 min
4.5 m 34 min
ascend to surface at 42 min.

So this is a 17 minute dive to 30 metres. You ascended with 10 metres per min to 18 metres, then with 3 metres per min to 9 metres and then spend 19 minutes from 9 metres to the surface; 6 min at 9 and 6 metres and 7 min at 4.5 metres.

Of course it's nice if you're going to dive like this to have something to look at along the way. It's clearly easier to do ascents like this if you're diving along a shoreline than it is if you dive, for example, on a wreck.

But that's the *basic* idea of one possible way to make clean check-mark type ascent. As I said before there are other ways, including the way UP alludes to but it's more specific and more generalized that what I'm describing. The advantage of making your ascent like this is that you'll generally feel better at the end of the dive. You'll also note that such profiles are easily done on the tables and that you'll soon start to view your computer, if you dive much like this, as nothing more than an elaborate bottom timer. The last thing to be said about this is that if you commit to making your profile like this then it would be nice to know that you're not going to run out of air before you're done.... that's chapter 2.

R..
 

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