What is the real difference in the training

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I think it would be interesting to see a video of an open water class taught by beanojones in which he can demonstrate his efficient methods in producing certain diving behaviors. This would be more useful than continued yammering, where none of us, especially those like me who know very little, can make an objective comparison.
 
I think it would be interesting to see a video of an open water class taught by beanojones in which he can demonstrate his efficient methods in producing certain diving behaviors.

I think you misunderstand what he's saying (either that or I do).

By "efficiency", I interpret it to mean that instructors shouldn't do anything extra beyond the base syllabus of the course. Giving anything more (video, extra knowledge, performance feedback etc) is "inefficient".

I don't quite understand that logic, as none of those 'extra' factors have any influence on the students' individual gas endurance in the water (how long their dives will be). Assuming that dive duration (a personal factor, but dependant on situational factors such as depth, water temp etc) would be identical, regardless of the instructor.. the only product of this "efficiency" would be less overall contact/inter-action between the student and instructor, because the classes would be shorter in duration.

"Efficiency", in that interpretation, may appeal to those who want to spend the minimum possible time in training, whilst still acquiring the minimum standards needed for certification. It won't appeal to those who want to get the maximum possible educational value out of the course.

i.e.

"Efficient course" = 4 hours underwater diving, 5 confined sessions, 21 skills, 5 knowledge reviews and an exam conducted in 20 hours of instruction.

"Inefficient course" = 4 hours underwater diving, 5 confined sessions, 21 skills, 5 knowledge reviews and an exam plus video feedback, inter-active discussion, side-discussions of progressive theory aspects and additional skills conducted in 30 hours of instruction.

Both approaches exist, common to most agencies.

To answer the OPs initial question: that is one of the real differences in scuba instruction.
 
Does that count as part of the time "in the water"?

(Unfortunately, I can picture these debriefings happening with students still with gear on their backs.)

Of course it does ... because you're usually at the buoy, discussing what you just did, getting and giving feedback, and then descending back down to practice what you just discussed.

I've found real-time feedback to be a very effective approach to teaching good diving behavior.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
I think you misunderstand what he's saying (either that or I do).

By "efficiency", I interpret it to mean that instructors shouldn't do anything extra beyond the base syllabus of the course. Giving anything more (video, extra knowledge, performance feedback etc) is "inefficient".

I don't think that's what she's saying at all ... I suspect that beano teaches a class well beyond what her agency defines as minimal. Instead I think she has very strong notions of what constitutes effective instructional approach, and is reasonably contemptuous of any instructor who teaches by other means.

What I've found over the years is that instructors who have strong feelings about one particular approach to instruction over others tends to be very good with certain students, and very poor with others ... regardless of their approach or how thorougly they apply it ... and that is also one of the real differences in scuba instruction ... the ability to adapt to the needs of the individuals you are training.

There is no single "best" way to teach ... scuba or anything else. The best instructors I've taken classes from understand this, and adapt their teaching approach based on how the students are responding.

And FWIW - I know at least two local instructors with graduate degrees in education, including the one I've taken most of my tech classes with. He's been a high school science teacher for more than 20 years. The other is a professor at the University of Washington. Both are (relatively inactive) members of ScubaBoard.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
Beano wrote
Diving is simply nothing like anything we have ever done
And this I just can't accept. Diving, in fact, is often "something like" what most people have done for years -- swim and, quite frankly, snorkel. At least in my very limited experience, MOST of the OW students have some experience with snorkeling (I'm not sure any haven't done some snorkeling but maybe).

While snorkeling is NOT the same as diving, it does have a lot of the same characteristics:

a. Body placement -- horizontal as opposed to land vertical

b. Mask (i.e. nose and eye restrictions)

c. Breathing through something while looking down or a little ahead

d. Propulsion by use of feet using a non-walking motion

So, at least to this person's experience and belief, most Open Water Students HAVE experienced something very much like diving. In fact, most people who have taken an Open Water Class have a lot more "like" experience than the beginner skiers I taught, almost all of whom had NEVER had the experience of sliding down a hill with long boards on their feet or anything LIKE that!
 
Beano wrote


And this I just can't accept. Diving, in fact, is often "something like" what most people have done for years -- swim and, quite frankly, snorkel. At least in my very limited experience, MOST of the OW students have some experience with snorkeling (I'm not sure any haven't done some snorkeling but maybe).

While snorkeling is NOT the same as diving, it does have a lot of the same characteristics:

a. Body placement -- horizontal as opposed to land vertical

b. Mask (i.e. nose and eye restrictions)

c. Breathing through something while looking down or a little ahead

d. Propulsion by use of feet using a non-walking motion

So, at least to this person's experience and belief, most Open Water Students HAVE experienced something very much like diving. In fact, most people who have taken an Open Water Class have a lot more "like" experience than the beginner skiers I taught, almost all of whom had NEVER had the experience of sliding down a hill with long boards on their feet or anything LIKE that!

I certainly like it when the mask breathing, and fins for propulsion is readied through snorkeling experience. But generally the head positioning is too dissimilar to have programmed useful patterns of whole body response. Trying to get people to look forward on scuba when they have looked down when snorkeling means there is some ingrained behavior to undo. Free divers have it the best in that regard since they are used to putting their in face in line with their body.

Most people run into trouble with underwater balance more than movement, when their instinctive body reactions (craning their neck, using their arms for propulsion or stability) actually work counter to their previous experience. Since their inherent/learned instinctive responses are either ineffectual or worse counter-productive, there is a period where frustration keeps any new patterns from being laid down.

In my experience, the radical instability of being underwater is where most people find them selves at a loss. And not just instability, but the fact that gravitational effects vary with breathing patterns and throughout the breathing cycle, Since breathing is the most instinctive bodily response that we still have some degree of conscious control over, the confusion of what to do with it requires several hours of practice to even begin to get a handle on.

Both the body reactions and the breathing (which are the most difficult aspects of underwater stability and neutral buoyancy) are simply not factors in snorkeling.

Swimming IME is just too dissimilar to be of any predictive value in seeing how quickly a diver becomes capable/comfortable in the water. I have had plenty do just fine, and plenty spend most of the course fighting with swimming instincts. Not to mention its swimmers who tend to discard their mask and reg upon hitting the surface, because they assume competence at the surface.

As far as skiing goes, there is a large degree of stability, how much we weigh does not vary through the breathing cycle, and we consistently fall down (both on our butts and down the mountain). Diving by comparison has basically complete instability especially when new divers have the new diver shimmies.

Diving is unique in one more important aspect. FOr most of our lives, there is no useful distinction between mass and weight. Underwater (and in conditions of weightlessness) there is a complete separation of the two. It's one thing to be told there is a difference; it's another thing to learn to react appropriately to it.
 
I don't think that's what she's saying at all ... I suspect that beano teaches a class well beyond what her agency defines as minimal. Instead I think she has very strong notions of what constitutes effective instructional approach, and is reasonably contemptuous of any instructor who teaches by other means.

What I've found over the years is that instructors who have strong feelings about one particular approach to instruction over others tends to be very good with certain students, and very poor with others ... regardless of their approach or how thorougly they apply it ... and that is also one of the real differences in scuba instruction ... the ability to adapt to the needs of the individuals you are training.

While I appreciate that one approach may not fit all, my problem is with the tendency of instructors to do the easy thing and talk, and not do the hard thing and watch what the students do, and build the appropriate actions into students by thinking about sequencing, and how each individual exercise students do fits together with every other exercise students do. (See the discussion in the other place about swim tests. It can be an opportunity for students to put into action what they are learning, or not.) Because too many instructors are convinced of the power and effectiveness of talking (while I, clearly, am not), too many instructors lecture about things, (and then often, forget to program the proper behavior into students from step one). Since the recent example is of a particular course in which many details of physical performance were missed, I cannot help but think there is a cause and effect relationship going on. As is the more instructors talk, the more details are missed in water. We are all human, and we will let down at times. Better to be razor sharp in the water, if details are to be missed. We all have excellent educational materials to use for lecture. But there is nothing but us in the water.

I find that as students get further from their (properly thought out) OW course, they come to understand why things were done in the OW course, if they are taught by an instructor who has thought about how the pieces fit together, and really concentrated on the details of physical performance. If they are told things, and not required to incorporate them into dive behavior, then I question why they are even told the thing in the first place.

(Hence, why I love the idea of the GUE Fundies course, as I understand it. While some few students may understand why everything is done the way it is done when they take the course, others are just as likely (and I would argue just as effectively) to adapt behaviors and equipment setups that they will only later grow to fully appreciate. Lectures prepare them, physical practice programs them, and but only later will they come to fully appreciate just how much thought and effort was put into making the whole system. The behavior and setup is in place, and experience reinforces its value.)
 
Showing them videos just reminds that they suck, and gives proof. They lack the tools to do anything with that shaming experience besides feel inadequate.

Recently my wife decided to start diving again (after 3 years out) and asked to start-over in a BP/w with long hose and the team diving approach. I filmed her first 10 dives. In the beginning she was not comfortable with her buoyancy or trim. After 5 dives she was doing okay. After 10 dives she was doing mask removals, shooting a bag, and air shares with a long hose, properly, without losing position; as well as mostly proper execution of all the various propulsion and ascent strategies. Much of that was accomplished because she was able to see herself on video (often while still in the water immediately after something was recorded) and made adjustments. She even refused to get in the water at times if I didn't have my camera with me or hadn't replaced the batteries before the dive so she can see herself and learn from it.

Myself, I hated seeing myself on video. I sucked. I was stressed. I was miserable. Anyone who would seek such training already knows they need to learn the new skills and that improvement will come. How one feels and how one performed does not always match up. A student may feel like a particular skill was performed one way, but the video may confirm or contradict it. It's a valuable learning tool. A student may indeed feel inadequate or not. But it can create great confidence to when the student begins to see the improvements take shape. So it is also a good reinforcement tool.

Personally, were it not for being able to see myself on video, I would not have been able to 'see' where I needed adjustments. I also would not have been able to see whether I had accomplished the skills. It was great being able to see myself make progress, as well. Simply having another diver or instructor tell me I did or didn't isn't as useful as seeing it for myself. In fact, with me, I'd wager that if another person was always critiqueing me I'd eventually hate them. But the video is far more objective.
 
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I'm agreeing, way more than I would usually admit, with DevonDiver and reestablishing a distaste, I had formally embraced and later dismissed, with DIR divers so I will adjourn to another thread and let you thrash it out amoungst yourselves.

Any training program that makes a better diver acomplishes the desired goal, and any instructor that does not use the tools available to that end might rethink their goal.


Bob
--------------------------------
I may be old, but I’m not dead yet.
 
I certainly like it when the mask breathing, and fins for propulsion is readied through snorkeling experience. But generally the head positioning is too dissimilar to have programmed useful patterns of whole body response. Trying to get people to look forward on scuba when they have looked down when snorkeling means there is some ingrained behavior to undo. Free divers have it the best in that regard since they are used to putting their in face in line with their body.
I agree, one of the reasons we do extensive free diver training at the start of our class.
Most people run into trouble with underwater balance more than movement, when their instinctive body reactions (craning their neck, using their arms for propulsion or stability) actually work counter to their previous experience. Since their inherent/learned instinctive responses are either ineffectual or worse counter-productive, there is a period where frustration keeps any new patterns from being laid down.
Again, I agree, and this can be, in part, solved by providing exercises that work on the propriary receptors, that is to say exercises that provide physical feedback as to the correct or incorrect action(s). But it needs to go beyond that, into the realm of simulation, simulation that might be considered, by some, as "hazing," which I'd rather call, "self-hazing," or "problem solving."

To my way of thinking the argument if favor of this sort of hazing is that, when judiciously applied, it is a fairly realistic simulation of what happens in the course of a "diving accident." There is one failure piled on top of another until both the diver's ability to deal with the immediate crisis and the diver's situational awareness (in this case the ability to see other problems coming and head them off before they compound the crisis) are compromised. So judicious application of hazing can simulate this situation and take a student right to panic, and even a hair over it, whilst they are still protected from real harm by leadership personnel.

There are some who would have you believe that everyone will panic at some level of stress and that you can not be trained not to panic. Let’s first take a cursory look at what panic is. A panic attack is defined as "a discrete period of intense fear or discomfort that is accompanied by at least 4 of 13 somatic or cognitive symptoms." The somatic symptoms described include shortness of breath, dizziness, and accelerated heart rate, whilst the cognitive symptoms consist of fear of dying and fear of going crazy or losing control. The distinction between somatic and cognitive symptoms, lead Clark in his, “Cognitive Approach to Panic" to advance a cognitive model of panic in which panic resulted from the "catastrophic misinterpretation" of bodily sensations whereby the perception of these sensations as far more dangerous than their cause(s). Palpitations may be interpreted as a sign of an impending heart attack, slight breathlessness may be perceived as evidence of cessation of breathing and possible resulting death, shakiness may be interpreted as signaling loss of control or insanity. He also proposed that such catastrophic misinterpretation may play a critical role in the vicious cycle which culminates in a panic attack and panic disorder. When you combine “normal” diving sensations with the fear that many people have of drowning or suffocating then it becomes easy to see why many divers are operating at close the edge of panic (oft without realizing it) much of the time. All it takes is one small incident or addition to push them right over the edge into a full blown panic state where offering a regulator or shouting "inflate your BC" are completely ineffective treatment modalities.

We have evolved to operate properly only within our natural environment. But, we have altered our natural environment, we have created technologies that do not conform to its rules and that expanded the natural world to include items and locations that we did not evolve to deal with. SCUBA equipment is a great example, divers are subjected new experiences that they misinterpret, e.g., an illusion of lack of air brought as a result of a tight fitting wet suit, the mechanical failings of a regulator, or the increasing density of the air they are breathing. When we subject ourselves to such phenomena and do not take the time to provide comprehensive learned feedback for these sensations, we guarantee that panic will result. Panic is only dealt with in one of two ways, technical solutions to help avoid the trigger sensations (e.g., a properly fitting wetsuit, a balanced first stage and “over-balanced” second stage and less dense gas mixtures for deeper dives) or comprehensive learned feedback to desensitize us to the sensations and/or retrain our responses. I am not a big believer in technological solutions. They have a way of going awry , either through the perversity of the universe or the stupidly of human kind. Rather I seek solutions through desensitization exercises and the retraining of responses.

We teach our students to hold their breath for rather long periods of time. This has several salubrious effects, it’s a great place to jump off to a discussion of shallow water blackout with the innumerable attendant physics and physiology topics; it gives the students an immediate feeling of major accomplishment, their having completed something that they doubted they could; it creates incredible confidence amongst the students in their instructors; and it provides a wonderful way to get them “back on the horse” when they hit a snag. There are several reasons for doing this, one is to teach them a relaxation technique, another is to help them to gain confidence that what we ask them to do and be done and yet a third is help them to gain confidence in themselves and their own ability to master things that they initially see as difficult or even impossible. Permit me to expand on some of these ideas.

We use a series of exercises, built into a kata, to teach our students breath holding. I am not, here and now, going to describe exactly how we teach breath holding (that‘s a separately priced product). First we conduct a “raise your hand” poll: “I can hold my breath for about three minutes! How long can you hold your breath?” one of the staff says, “Ten seconds? Raise your hand. Twenty? Raise your hand, if that’s too long for you lower it. Thirty? Forty-Five? A minute? Minute and a half? Two minutes? Longer than two minutes?” Everyone raises their hand for ten seconds. We lose a few at twenty, a few more at thirty. At forty-five way less than half the class is left and at a minute there might be two, one of whom gave up at a minute and a half, the other will still be going (usually with a slight smirk) at “Longer than two minutes?” Those last two we’ll have to watch, they’ll be paired up and put with two of the best free divers on the staff (they go out in the open ocean, free dive and spear tunas! A little out of my league).

The session continues: “Okay class … let me tell you what’s going to happen. Today each and every one of you will hold your breath for a minute. Most of you will reach a minute and a half and a few of you will reach two minutes. By the midterm every one of you will be able to breath hold for two minutes. Okay?” The general reaction is usually one of slight nervousness and insecurity. Then we describe and teach the kata and we do the kata, out to two minutes at the beginning of every pool and open water session. You can imagine the level of psych in the class when at the end of the first pool session they all make a minute or more. If you told that next class we will have a session where they learn to walk on water they’d believe it.

So what’s the big deal? So what if students can hold their breath? They’re here to learn to scuba diving not free dive! Right? Wrong! One quick example: think about how easy it is to teach a student to clear their mask who can confidently hold his or her breath for a minute. We spent 15 minutes on breath holding and now in less that five minutes everyone in the class has actually "mastered" repeated clears, effortlessly. That tradeoff alone makes it worth while, everything else is gravy.

But I was discussing desensitization exercises and the retraining of responses. We concentrate on exercises that force students to the edge of discomfort due to moderate exertion whilst breath holding and then we ask them to perform a fine motor skill that takes a little time. An example of this is our free diving doff and don, In full gear, including 7mm wet suit and gloves, but no hood:

  • surface dive to 13',
  • remove mask and place it on the bottom,
  • roll out of weight belt place it on the bottom,
  • make a flared ascent,
  • recover your breath on the surface,
  • surface dive down against the buoyancy of your suit,
  • roll into your weight belt and fasten it (wire or SeaQuest buckle really helps here),
  • and now to the fine motor skills: recover mask and don it,
  • clear mask,
  • surface with hand up, circling, with mask and snorkel clear.
There are a great number of other skills learned here too, a powerful surface dive, the advantage of dolphin kick for low gear and flutter kick for higher gear propulsion, operating without a mask, weight belt removal and replacement, etc. But most important is learning how to do something slowly and methodically when you’ve got an accelerated heart rate, trembling or shaking sensations, shortness of breath, feeling of choking, and chest pain or discomfort, tight-chested feeling. Heck, according to the American Psychiatric Association’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders you only need four of those five to be diagnosed with a full blown panic attack.

Almost no one succeeds in this exercise on their first try, we build up to it with propriary receptor training for pike surface dive position, diving to the bottom with and without a weightbelt, doing just the mask, doing just the weight belt and then finally doing both. After each attempt of each skill the student lies flat at the surface and engages in the breathing kata. This is extremely relaxing and teaches them how to click quickly into a meditative state that desensitizes them and retrains their responses.

By the time we are done, the student is in an entirely different “head space.” He or she knows that they can comfortably hold their breath for two minutes, that they can comfortably hold their breath for a minute, even on exhalation. This make concerns over things like emergency swimming ascents or sharing air (regardless of technique) rather irrelevant to them.

In my experience it is relatively easy to design exercises that are “self-stressing” so that there is no need to bring leadership personnel into them to make them more difficult. Well designed exercises will, without breaking the chain of trust, serve to allow students to experience panic and the kind of situations that lead up to it so that they are able to lean not just the correct mechanical response to a situation (what some instructors refer to as “relevant“ or “practical“ or “realistic” exercises), but are also taught to identify, control and work with the physical sensations and mental processes that are part an parcel of panic (such “irrelevant“ or “impractical“ or “unrealistic” exercises).

Please note that we accomplish all this without any recourse to staff on student hazing of any form. I do not believe in that sort of hazing because I feel that first and foremost it will have a souring effect on the relationship between the diving instructor and the diving student. Hazing diminishes, even destroys, the absolute trust that a diving student should have in his or her instructor. Less mature diving instructors may, if permitted to haze, cross over the line and actually endanger diving students all in the name of fun and games. Hazing can bring out the worst in human behavior.
In my experience, the radical instability of being underwater is where most people find them selves at a loss. And not just instability, but the fact that gravitational effects vary with breathing patterns and throughout the breathing cycle, Since breathing is the most instinctive bodily response that we still have some degree of conscious control over, the confusion of what to do with it requires several hours of practice to even begin to get a handle on.
Several hours at least, as well as some way of letting the student know when they are doing it right and when they are doing it wrong, as noted above.
Both the body reactions and the breathing (which are the most difficult aspects of underwater stability and neutral buoyancy) are simply not factors in snorkeling.
I would disagree about the body reactions but agree about the breathing.
Swimming IME is just too dissimilar to be of any predictive value in seeing how quickly a diver becomes capable/comfortable in the water. I have had plenty do just fine, and plenty spend most of the course fighting with swimming instincts. Not to mention its swimmers who tend to discard their mask and reg upon hitting the surface, because they assume competence at the surface.
I strongly disagree. There is, in my experience, almost a 100% correlation between strong, confident swimming skills and the students' rapid and accurate adaptation.
As far as skiing goes, there is a large degree of stability, how much we weigh does not vary through the breathing cycle, and we consistently fall down (both on our butts and down the mountain). Diving by comparison has basically complete instability especially when new divers have the new diver shimmies.
I disagree, it is counter-intuitive, at high speed, on a steep slope, to shift your weight forward onto your tips to get more control. Instinct says to sit back on the tail of your sticks.
Diving is unique in one more important aspect. FOr most of our lives, there is no useful distinction between mass and weight. Underwater (and in conditions of weightlessness) there is a complete separation of the two. It's one thing to be told there is a difference; it's another thing to learn to react appropriately to it.
True.
 

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