What is the real difference in the training

[RonFrank]

Diving takes some practice. I don't care if you instructor is with PADI or an independent. Practice = diving = improvement. If you take a college course you will likely be a better diver than almost any other cert class offered as you spend weeks in the pool with an instructor.

There is not a magic bean that Bob or any instructor can give you that magically eliminates the learning curve. In our OW class the instructor had free pool time at the end of each day. How many people took advantage of this? Myself and one other. I think the reality is many folks are not into becoming good divers. They may do so over time, but its not a big priority. They want to get certified, and go diving. If they suck so be it.

 

[MRadke]

If the course wouldn't have been broken up, I never would have taken it. I didn't even think that I would like diving. I only went because I had been badgered about it for a couple of years and finally caved in. I fully expected to have my first vacation in many years, do enough diving to satisfy my buddy, and forget about it. I took my PADI OW course in Cancun over 5 days and had a very good instructor who took into account my previous SCBA training and worked with me on the differences. I fully believe that the instructor determines the quality of the course, along with the willingness of the student, not the agency. Even one minor scare involving a stingray did nothing more than pique my interest. I have since bought my own equipment and plan on taking AOW in February. Yes, I will be taking it in Mexico, diving with professionals that dive on a daily basis, attempting to emulate what they do.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

My thoughts on this topic have evolved in the years that I've been teaching. At first I set "rules" for when it was appropriate to go from one class to the next. Then I began to see how much more quickly some people develop than others ... and that no one standard approach was going to work for everyone. I also came to understand that, as hard as I try to be a good instructor, there are some people I have trouble reaching ... and in some cases it's better for me to hand those people off to an instructor with a different approach to training than I have.

No one approach to training is going to work for everyone ... there are simply too many variables to account for, both from the instructor and the student. The one thing I would like to see is what Peter alluded to in Post #5 ... a higher standard set for becoming a scuba instructor. Because if there is one thing that's almost universally true, it's that the more skilled the instructor ... both from a teaching and diving perspective ... the more a student is going to get out of the class. At the OW level in particular, setting a good example for students to emulate matters more than any differences in agency curriculum. Give a quality instructor almost any agency's class curriculum and they will consistently turn out well-trained divers.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Potapko]

Today I went diving with a newly OW certified diver (I did not certify him, but I know the instructor, she is quite good, but, she is associated with a "McDive" operation ... as the OP calls them). His first dive after class!

I have been trying to convince him - every day - for 2 years to become a diver (he is quite good in the water).

Finally one day he decided to go for it

So, back to the OP.
First dive after OW ... he learned that: a) he needs to bring a towel and some water too, b) he needs more weights because the buoyancy was way off (different set of gear), and c) he had no clue of where he was during the dive.

Is he ready to dive with a buddy at his same level? Probably ... but I would NOT recommend it.

Is he ready to dive with a buddy that has a bit more experience than him? Sure.

Would he have become a diver if he had to spend >$1,000 for an OW class. I don't think so.

So, the "McDive" approach has generated a new "green" diver that is now excited about learning more and diving more (and has already spent several $$$ in gear). A "green" diver that, with proper mentoring, could become a very good diver.

Alberto (aka eDiver)

P.S.
Saturday we will dive again for "buoyancy check - part 2", and few hints on navigation

Alberto (aka eDiver)

Please note that I do not refer to any agency as "McDive". That was taken from another poster. I was defending the entry level approach as completely valid. See following response.

I guess I'd have to refer to the concept that an OW diver is certified to dive in conditions as good as, or better than those in which he was certified.

Exactly what I wanted to put into words. Thank you! I was trained in a quarry. Cold but shallow. I went immediately after to Egypt and did advanced in warm clear water. I returned to cold dark quarries for my next 30-40 dives, followed by a trip or two to Croatia to dive in warmer clearer water. I was certified for the quarry, then gained experience in the Red Sea, Then practiced for hours in other quarries along with trips to the sea. Added to my experience along the way and added advanced training to that experience.

I was qualified only to do fairly simple dives in a quarry when I received my card. Later I gained training and experience so that now I am comfortable and competent in a wide range of areas. I am glad I did not have to meet Jim's expectations in the beginning.

My thoughts on this topic have evolved in the years that I've been teaching. The one thing I would like to see is what Peter alluded to in Post #5 ... a higher standard set for becoming a scuba instructor.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I couldn't agree with this more. I see DM's and even instructors that I wouldn't consider a good buddy, let alone an instructor for new students.

 

[diveprof]

RSTC sets the minimum standards for the ow dive training. I think that the difference is not so much in whether it is a PADI , SSI , or NAUI (or others) course, but rather how well the individual instructor adheres to these standards and the degree to which there is ample opportunity to develop/practice the skills during the training. The mentor factor is huge in this sport. There are great instructors and training available with many training agencies. There is of course the individual motivation of the student. Some merely want to expend the least amount of effort needed to complete training/certification, others dive into to this sport with every ounce of their being. I agree with TSandM that most instructors are underpaid, most do this because they love diving. I believe the drive for the lowest possible cost for scuba instruction has led us to the point where many instructors quickly see that scuba instruction does not earn a good living wage and drop out. Therefore, there are many more new instructors providing this training as opposed to those with more experience. I believe I read some where that the average length of a scuba instructor in active teaching status is something less than 10 years. If this is incorrect, please provide me with the source of the current information.

 

[Teamcasa]

...Maybe the trick would be to market Discover Scuba type experiences much more aggressively . . . get people in the water for a very small investment of time and money, and hook them enough to sign up for a longer, higher quality class that would be more expensive and allow better remuneration of instructors, so that people wouldn't burn out constantly. That might have worked for me -- I don't know.

I've long been a advocate for this. Let them try it then, let them try it some more. The people that can comfortably adapt will likely become better, more active divers than those whose spouse/partner/friend coerced them into certification.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

RSTC sets the minimum standards for the ow dive training.

No ... they do not ... this is a common misconception that I see posted on ScubaBoard with some regularity.

The RSTC is not a standards agency ... it's mission is primarily marketing. The minimum standards you're referring to are nothing more than a lowest-common-denominator of the combined standards of its member agencies ... and is such a low standard that anything lower would barely constitute training at all.

The RSTC has no authority over anyone except the five agencies who have chosen to join the RSTC ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[diveprof]

No ... they do not ... this is a common misconception that I see posted on ScubaBoard with some regularity.

The RSTC is not a standards agency ... it's mission is primarily marketing. The minimum standards you're referring to are nothing more than a lowest-common-denominator of the combined standards of its member agencies ... and is such a low standard that anything lower would barely constitute training at all.

The RSTC has no authority over anyone except the five agencies who have chosen to join the RSTC ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

RSTC establishes the minimal standards for the lions share of participating scuba certification agencies in N. America including:
PADI
SSI
PDIC
SDI
IDEA.
WRSTC :: World Recreational Scuba Training Council
Yes, I correctly stated that they are involved in establishing the minimum training standards. You are correct in that not all agencies are participants. What are minimal entry level standards is always a point for debate and revision.However, these organizations make up the largest market share of all scuba instruction. I am unsure of the exact current percentage, but I believe that you wil find that it is in excess of 90% of all US scuba certifications. However, when I look at your profile only SDI (a very small percentage of overall certifications) is listed from this group. Most of your certifications are from smaller or more technical scuba (cave etc.) oriented organizations. I applaud your obtaining these certifications and your number of accomplished dives and my comments are not intended to detract from this. These are fine organizations. However, when the poster is talking about entry level scuba I see nothing wrong with mentioning RSTC standards since the vast majority of all certified divers are from organizations participating in RSTC. From my experience, the differences within these major organizations is not substantial (speaking from PADI, SSI, NASDS experiences). To me, the major differences are found in their application by individual instructors.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

RSTC establishes the minimal standards for the lions share of participating scuba certification agencies in N. America including:
PADI
SSI
PDIC
SDI
IDEA.
WRSTC :: World Recreational Scuba Training Council
Yes, I correctly stated that they are involved in establishing the minimum training standards. You are correct in that not all agencies are participants. What are minimal entry level standards is always a point for debate and revision.However, these organizations make up the largest market share of all scuba instruction. I am unsure of the exact current percentage, but I believe that you wil find that it is in excess of 90% of all US scuba certifications.

It's not that high ... nor particularly relevent.

As I'm sure you know, about 98% of all scuba certifications issued in the USA come from one of three agencies ... PADI, NAUI and SSI. NAUI is not a member of the RSTC. PADI and SSI make up the majority (by far) share of RSTC membership. The other three members comprise roughly 1% of certifications issued within North America.

But the fact that these percentages matter at all speaks to exactly what I said ... the primary mission of RSTC is marketing. RSTC "minimum standards" are a farce ... they're nothing more than a lowest-common denominator of the standards that member agencies already had ... none of the member agencies had to make a single change to their existing standards in order to meet them. So the RSTC didn't really "set" anything.

However, when I look at your profile only SDI (a very small percentage of overall certifications) is listed from this group. Most of your certifications are from smaller or more technical scuba (cave etc.) oriented organizations.

Not that it should matter to this conversation, but the majority of my recreational certifications are from NAUI and the YMCA.

However, when the poster is talking about entry level scuba I see nothing wrong with mentioning RSTC standards since the vast majority of all certified divers are from organizations participating in RSTC.

There is nothing wrong with it ... but that is not what you said. You said they set minimum standards for OW dive training. The qualifier is, of course, within their member organizations ... they have absolutely no bearing on agencies that are not RSTC members.

From my experience, the differences within these major organizations is not substantial (speaking from PADI, SSI, NASDS experiences). To me, the major differences are found in their application by individual instructors.

I'll agree with that ... and the most significant difference between agencies isn't in their standards so much as in their support of instructors who want to put real effort into offering a higher quality training experience ... as I'm sure we both know, some are more supportive than others ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[diveprof]

It's not that high ... nor particularly relevent.

As I'm sure you know, about 98% of all scuba certifications issued in the USA come from one of three agencies ... PADI, NAUI and SSI. NAUI is not a member of the RSTC. PADI and SSI make up the majority (by far) share of RSTC membership. The other three members comprise roughly 1% of certifications issued within North America.

But the fact that these percentages matter at all speaks to exactly what I said ... the primary mission of RSTC is marketing. RSTC "minimum standards" are a farce ... they're nothing more than a lowest-common denominator of the standards that member agencies already had ... none of the member agencies had to make a single change to their existing standards in order to meet them. So the RSTC didn't really "set" anything.Bob (Grateful Diver)

Your opinion. From what I know about RSTC, they are about minimum standards - are you involved with them?, even been to their website, etc.? Of course someone not involved currently with an organization involved in teaching the majority of the US to dive ( PADI, SSI) may wish to say "oh, it's about marketing" for business purposes.

There is nothing wrong with it ... but that is not what you said. You said they set minimum standards for OW dive training. The qualifier is, of course, within their member organizations ... they have absolutely no bearing on agencies that are not RSTC members. Bob (Grateful Diver)

I believe that I clarified this in my response. OK, so I was only talking about 90%+ of certified divers. My bad, neglected the other few %.

I'll agree with that ... and the most significant difference between agencies isn't in their standards so much as in their support of instructors who want to put real effort into offering a higher quality training experience ... as I'm sure we both know, some are more supportive than others ...Bob (Grateful Diver)

We sort of agree on this - I do not have to go outside of my agency's standards to provide excellent instruction. Not sure if you were referring to something like that or not.
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