What is the future of GUE?

[rjack321]

I'm not a senior GUE diver but I started diving DIR pre-GUE and took a fundies course around 2003. Cave 1 and 2 followed around 2004 and 2005.

I joke that I lost my GUE handshake back in 2008 when I went CCR and subsequently started to use computers, RBs, etc.. But it's just a joke as my GUE training is always in the back of my mind and helps me to make an informed decision, no matter how far off the DIR track that decision happens to be, whether it's CCR, Sidemount, Monkey diving, etc.

My hope is the GUE sticks around as they are a real alternative to the rest of the crap out there that passes for scuba instruction (especially technical) these days.

Wut he said ^^^

I took DIR-F in 2003, Tech1 in 2004ish, Cave1 in 2006 and Cave2 in 2008.
While I have since moved on to sidemount and CCR diving, what I learned diving for OC backmount dives is always in the back of my mind. Cause that's basically what I'm falling back on when a dive goes massively sideways. Which is precisely why I cringe when I hear of divers doing intro cave training in sidemount and having no idea how doubles work (true story - what kind of buddy are they??) Or CCR with no prior OC deco diving experience.

The basics never go out of style and remain a solid barometer against which all other equipment, gas plans etc can be compared.

 

[Compressor]

The basics never go out of style and remain a solid barometer against which all other equipment, gas plans etc can be compared.

That statement is SO true. It always comes to following the basics.

 

[rjack321]

Are GUE numbers increasing or are they decreasing? I understand this is not an agency that has ever measured its strength by its numbers but how dofficult would it be to find a GUE buddy 10 - 15 years from now?

Yes, but they are unlikely to be "exactly" like you. Things do change albit slowly. In the last 10 years...
SADDDDD (#Ds?) became GUE-EDGE.
Valve drills have changed.
How to calculate min gas has changed (although the actual volume ends up being within ~5%).
Shape of the ascent has changed

Does that mean someone potentially 5 or 10 years "out of date" isn't a GUE buddy? That's up to you to decide.

 

[PfcAJ]

Yes, but they are unlikely to be "exactly" like you. Things do change albit slowly. In the last 10 years...
SADDDDD (#Ds?) became GUE-EDGE.
Valve drills have changed.
How to calculate min gas has changed (although the actual volume ends up being within ~5%).
Shape of the ascent has changed

Does that mean someone potentially 5 or 10 years "out of date" isn't a GUE buddy? That's up to you to decide.

Imo with those specifics people get hung up on are really principles.

I don't think I've ever done a "GUE edge" outside of class but all the parts of one are covered before the dive. Min gas is a principle designed to get you thinking about your reserve gas. What's taught for the ascents has changed some but the idea of a simple ascent plan remains.

 

[rjack321]

Imo with those specifics people get hung up on are really principles.

I don't think I've ever done a "GUE edge" outside of class but all the parts of one are covered before the dive. Min gas is a principle designed to get you thinking about your reserve gas. What's taught for the ascents has changed some but the idea of a simple ascent plan remains.

Agree
I was just trying to point out that most of us (senior DIR? people lol) aren't clones and we diverge on how we approach what's taught in class and what's actually taught hasn't been totally static either. Hard to predict what people will be doing in 10 or 15 years but I think there will still be a market for backmounted doubles, solid buoyancy, good kicks, and consistent thought (if not application) about reserve gas, deco shape and such things.

 

[beester]

I'm not senior, but I have taken both the cave and tech route courses, and am active in the (local) GUE community.

I do believe GUE will still be around in 10 years. The only thing I hope is that there will be enough younger instructors slowly growing into more experience, becoming ITs and IEs, because the average age of the senior instructors is slowly creeping up

For me the best thing about GUE is 2 fold: First the incredible attention to basics and the details in those basics described in clear methodology. A GUE instructor has the tools to get everybodies basic skills to a much higher level, with the only caveat that the students need to adopt the hog rig and team based diving, it doesn't work very well with sidemount. What you later do with those basics is up to you. LIke someone already mentioned you don't need to stay within the GUE fold, but the basic skills, methodology and procedures will be helpful in whatever path you chose in your diving career. It's a very powerfull tool.

The 2nd is even more important. It's the community and the "common language". Many experienced technical divers are not very accessible for noobs, they dive within their own inner circle and getting to that level is very hard. However this is not the case with GUE. You have access to an incredible number of very very experienced technical divers. They will dive within their own group, of course. But they are also willing to dive with guys just entering the technical scene, because the "language" (procedures, basic skills) are already there. As a fundies diver you can dive with guys with a lot of experience doing rec dives, and learn just watching them. As a C1 diver I dived with some amazing experienced cave divers, they didn't mind doing C1 dives between their big dives with a noob like me. I think that's the strength of the system.

Cheers

B

 

[_Ralph]

It has been slow to accept changes. It resisted computers, CCR and still does not accept side mount and solo diving. In the age of backmount this style of training and diving was obviously superior to most other options. Would GUE still have the same appeal in another 10 years?

Are GUE numbers increasing or are they decreasing? I understand this is not an agency that has ever measured its strength by its numbers but how dofficult would it be to find a GUE buddy 10 - 15 years from now?

I'm no old mucky muck, but here's my thoughts on your observations:


Computers: Divers/GUE want to know how their computers will react. Back 10-15 years ago (and even still today with most recreational ones) you don't really know. Running a repeatable system (bottom timer/depth gauge) and using your brain as a computer is/was superior. How many threads do you see routinely posted about 'My computer said I couldn't dive today!' In regards to live aboard trips with lots of diving and short SI with a known very conservative brand? Is it wrong? Is the more liberal computer wrong? Which one is more right for the goals of the trip? Does one bend you more?

Relying on a randomly (ie, GUE doesn't dictate by XXX model of ZZZ) proprietary dive computer doesn't result in a 'thinking diver'

Today, there are lots of computers that are better than others in this regard (running VPM, GF, DSAT). Something that is easily repeatable and without too much manufacturer 'secret sauce'.

Everything is still taught with a bottom timer (aside from CCR monitor).


Side mount: there's enough info here already about it. It is a tool. Not the first one to grab, but when required, just like CCR.

In regards to CCR, I like the way it is structured (and hate it too, hey I wanna be cool with a $10 gas bill rather than a $500 bill for the weekend!)

The reasoning is dead simple. You progress through OC learning all the skills you need to survive if you need to bail out of the rebreather (gas switches, multiple bottles, failure resolution, etc). No MOD 1-3, no xyz only. Just dive.

I'm not saying other organizations are doing it wrong, but I agree more with this path than, 'hey, wanna do AOW in a RB?' (SCR like the Hollis)


Solo diving?? Clearly there's no team of one out there in the vast world of TEAM sports.


Where I am, numbers are increasing. There are 2 new instructors in the past 18 months, at least a half dozen starting their ITC as well in that time frame. It used to be 3-4 fundies courses a year, now it's up to 10+ scheduled in the same time frame (especially with the newer Fundies 1/2 format), with more instructors on the way.


Someone also mentioned frivoulous courses like gas blending. In our area, most (all) shops have 1 employee (or just the owner) that have blending training/can blend, as they've gone far enough in their dive training to take a blending course. Real handy when they have days off/holidays and you need tanks filled ....

I can see why they structure it that way, but it's ridiculous to require the blender to be a dive instructor (or similar)!

With this approach, your surface support can actually support dive missions with gas blending. Even a small weekend of picking up trash from a local site requires lots of gas, and gasses!

Rec3, is handy for those that want this training, but not want (or have a need) to do Tec1. I have to drive over 3 hours to get past 80ft .... If I dove just in that radius, why do I even need to go past my OW training?

Just some thoughts,


_R

 

[rjack321]

Computers: Divers/GUE want to know how their computers will react. Back 10-15 years ago (and even still today with most recreational ones) you don't really know. Running a repeatable system (bottom timer/depth gauge) and using your brain as a computer is/was superior. How many threads do you see routinely posted about 'My computer said I couldn't dive today!' In regards to live aboard trips with lots of diving and short SI with a known very conservative brand? Is it wrong? Is the more liberal computer wrong? Which one is more right for the goals of the trip? Does one bend you more?

Relying on a randomly (ie, GUE doesn't dictate by XXX model of ZZZ) proprietary dive computer doesn't result in a 'thinking diver'

Today, there are lots of computers that are better than others in this regard (running VPM, GF, DSAT). Something that is easily repeatable and without too much manufacturer 'secret sauce'.

The "problem" with computers is everyone potentially doing something slightly different based on either a different algorithm or different settings. Teaching tables and a bottom timer forces everyone to acknowledge the plan up front. After awhile you learn what you prefer and might even agree to be slightly different cause those differences aren't deal breakers. But the attitude of understanding the plan in common and the possible deviations from it sticks with you.

 

[kirill egorov]

Good day,
GUE numbers are increasing. We have more instructors teaching in more countries than 5 years ago.

Nevertheless, as Ken said, just increasing the certifications numbers not really what we are after .
Originally being created as more of an exploration group, seeing training as a tool to create more divers to go diving and explore with - we still look at new classes or new equipment as an addition to our 'tool box' rather than creating another sales opportunity.

The diving and exploration landscape is changing - more and more often caves are smaller or more complicated and wrecks are further away in a logistically complicated spots. We realize that to maintain "Global" and "Explorers" in our name, we have to keep adjusting and changing.

It took us many years to get personal experience with CCRs (at an IT/IE level), make up our mind on the unit we wanted to use and the way we want to teach this class.

We are looking into side mount - but for now we are more interested in getting trained and getting more experience then teaching it.

Computer use - we recognize that both computer reliability and the decompression profiles provided by them are significantly better than even a few years ago. We also recognize that sometimes using computers for deco calculations offers some convenient comparisons - at the same time we believe that students/divers first have to have the skills and habit of properly planning their dives using software, get a reasonable understanding of decompression modeling and see the relationship between depth/bottom time/gases/decompression time. So, there are still no computers used during classes, but no one will criticize a diver using computer as a back up to their primary plan.

Solo diving - that really does not fit into our "philosophy" .

Best Regards
Kirill A. Egorov
GUE Cave and Tech Administrator

 

[kathydee]

I'm doing fundamentals this weekend. I'm looking forward to meeting up with GUE divers and starting projects going forward.!

Good luck with your class! Have fun !