What is the deepest you can do an OOA?

[MikeFerrara]

I don't disagree with where you place CESA on the list. What I disagree with is not having it on the list at all. This is the attitude I have seen in some posts on this thread. It is usually accompanied by arguments that "I would never find myself in a position to need it because of proper preparation and training." This is where it all goes wrong in my book, because the person who received the training is human, as is the person/persons who provided the training. Nothing (acknowledged, including CESA) is infalable. But it seems silly to spend $100 on a wrench to put in the tool box, but throw away the screwdriver that someone tries to give you for free.

Continueing with the logic I tried to rpesent in my last post...what if I vowed to only dive in caves for the rest of my diving career? Could I toss the CESA idea then? What if I did a dive in OW but in keeping with my vow dived as though I were in a cave?Do I need to practice my CESA's first? I didn't buy a $100 wrench so I could toss the free screw driver. I baught the $100 wrench because I needed it when I baught it. Now I realize that the screw driver that I got for free is worth exactly what I paid for it and I prefer to use the $100 wrench.

I did about a million CESA's when I was training OW divers but haven't done or practiced one since and I probably won't either. If it gets me killed yall can say "I told you so".

 

[dbulmer]

Mike,
I agree with you but one thing I would say is that there is a learning curve we all go through. I'm sure in your case there's stuff you've done in the past that you wouldn't think twice about doing now. I think for novices such as myself the in-water time is essential because we become more aware of what can go wrong and start to think of how preventitive measures can be taken. In my own case a CESA is way down the list but when I started diving I used to practice it a reasonable amount - your view on the training I think is correct but you have the huge benefit of experience from your days as an instructor and the dives you've done. A lot of us don't have that experience and fall back on what we were trained (rightly or wrongly I hasten to add).

 

[gangrel441]

Continueing with the logic I tried to rpesent in my last post...what if I vowed to only dive in caves for the rest of my diving career? Could I toss the CESA idea then? What if I did a dive in OW but in keeping with my vow dived as though I were in a cave?Do I need to practice my CESA's first? I didn't buy a $100 wrench so I could toss the free screw driver. I baught the $100 wrench because I needed it when I baught it. Now I realize that the screw driver that I got for free is worth exactly what I paid for it and I prefer to use the $100 wrench.

I did about a million CESA's when I was training OW divers but haven't done or practiced one since and I probably won't either. If it gets me killed yall can say "I told you so".

I have acknowledged myself earlier that cave does not allow for CESA, for obvious reasons. I have also acknowedged that CESA is a very low probability event, and that I have never needed to do one, nor do I hope to ever. But to look at this as a game theorist, cave diving changes one of the rules of the game to the point where it becomes a whole new game. No direct route to the surface = no CESA. What that means is, if all other options fail (as does happen from time to time to cavers), drowning is the final outcome.

In open water with a direct line to the surface, CESA simply adds one more, final, avoidable, unpleasant opportunity for life in a situation that would leave a cave diver in the cave permenantly. That opportunity is the CESA. Low probability instance with a decent chance for survival. Sorry if you don't see it that way, but I will keep that one handy, whether I know I will never use it or not. Not really clear why this is even an argument.

CESA - a bad choice, but if everything else somehow manages to turn to crap on ya', definately better than breathing H20.

 

[dbulmer]

Gangrel,
I'm a Martial artist myself (Judo/Jiu Jitsu and Wing Chun) and as ever I think Mike F raises a valid point. I view the CESA similar to the Fin pivot - it's a starting point but no more than that - I do think it's an option for some people but what would be better is the diver developiing the skill and ability to recognise an issue and deal with it before it becomes an Oh **** moment.

 

[gangrel441]

Gangrel,
I'm a Martial artist myself (Judo/Jiu Jitsu and Wing Chun) and as ever I think Mike F raises a valid point. I view the CESA similar to the Fin pivot - it's a starting point but no more than that - I do think it's an option for some people but what would be better is the diver developiing the skill and ability to recognise an issue and deal with it before it becomes an Oh **** moment.

Again, 100% agreed, except sometimes the snowball effect doesn't happen at 5 minute intervals. It is plausable, though incredibly unlikely, for everything to go south within a matter of seconds. I don't expect to ever face such a set of circumstances, but if I do, I hope to be prepared to deal with it. It may be a simple matter of philosophy, but I don't feel like I have needed to make a tremendous investment in staying fresh on CESA procedure, and as a result, I have one last trick in my back pocket if I ever need it.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Well...we generally define OW recreational diving as diving where we have direct access to the surface. A CESA is one way of getting to the surface. Most of us have done one or more of them at least in training or practice so we know that it can work.

I guess a valid question to ask ouselves is...at what depth or under what conditions do we start to lose confidence in our access to the surface? FredT and Captain told some stories but, and they can correct me if I'm wrong, I think they were trained such that a much greater priority was placed on watermenship skills (ie. the idea was to be able to survive with or without your equipment) than what we have today. Now days you don't even need to know how to swim to get the agency blessing. Dive training is much the same as it was then only without all that hard watermenship training that might hurt sales.

Now what happens? We do a few dives and the next thing you know we are at 100 ft realizing that the buddy we are with isn't much of a buddy and the surface is starting to look pretty far away. Is this sort of like an overhead environment?...almost kind-a-sort-of? We see in the recent threads that a lot of divers opt for a pony and now we're going back and forth about CESA.

The problem I see is that many divers don't have those "grab the bull by the horns" watermenship skills (that might functionally give them access to the surface) and they don't have the training/experience/equipment for overhead environments (that would functionally make them independant of the surface). Personally, I don't think either a pony bottle or practicing deeper ESA's are very good answers. At least I know that's not what did it for me. Maybe I'm wrong but I think that's more or less in line with what soggy and some others have been getting at. I know I've said this a million times but there was a time when I started to think that I needed a pony...the surface was starting to look pretty far away and my confidence in my ability to get there was getting shaky. Looking back, I know that I was doing dives that I wasn't really ready for. Now, I said "I" and not "you" so don't go gttin on my back. LOL

 

[gangrel441]

Well...we generally define OW recreational diving as diving where we have direct access to the surface. A CESA is one way of getting to the surface. Most of us have done one or more of them at least in training or practice so we know that it can work.

I guess a valid question to ask ouselves is...at what depth or under what conditions do we start to lose confidence in our access to the surface? FredT and Captain told some stories but, and they can correct me if I'm wrong, I think they were trained such that a much greater priority was placed on watermenship skills (ie. the idea was to be able to survive with or without your equipment) than what we have today. Now days you don't even need to know how to swim to get the agency blessing. Dive training is much the same as it was then only without all that hard watermenship training that might hurt sales.

Now what happens? We do a few dives and the next thing you know we are at 100 ft realizing that the buddy we are with isn't much of a buddy and the surface is starting to look pretty far away. Is this sort of like an overhead environment?...almost kind-a-sort-of? We see in the recent threads that a lot of divers opt for a pony and now we're going back and forth about CESA.

The problem I see is that many divers don't have those "grab the bull by the horns" watermenship skills (that might functionally give them access to the surface) and they don't have the training/experience/equipment for overhead environments (that would functionally make them independant of the surface). Personally, I don't think either a pony bottle or practicing deeper ESA's are very good answers. At least I know that's not what did it for me. Maybe I'm wrong but I think that's more or less in line with what soggy and some others have been getting at. I know I've said this a million times but there was a time when I started to think that I needed a pony...the surface was starting to look pretty far away and my confidence in my ability to get there was getting shaky. Looking back, I know that I was doing dives that I wasn't really ready for. Now, I said "I" and not "you" so don't go gttin on my back. LOL

LOL Never meant to get on your back, Mike. All valid points above. Also, no question that if you found yourself in a situation where your last resort was CESA, you know how to do it. You've done plenty.

I also hear ya on the watermanship skills. I got my SSI cert back in 1987. Watermanship was not lax. I was a competative swimmer, and my dive instructor was also one of my swimming coaches. In 87, we did have octos, but buddy breathing was still a required skill, as was in-water rescue breathing and lots of other stuff that has been dropped since then. We were trained on Navy tables doing 60 fpm ascents with no safety stop, and the golden rule was 50 ft/50 min.

Watermanship has not escaped me since. When I did my watermanship exam for DM a few months ago, I was still swimming 400 yards in a little over 7 min. I already had my a passing score before I even did a tired diver push. I am vigilant about monitoring my and my buddy's gas supply, and while I know I have lots to learn, I pick up all I can get my hands on.

Like I said, I just always like to know that even if Armagedon strikes, I have at least one last resort option at my disposal.

Some of Soggy's and others' comments have given the impression that CESA isn't a last option, it is a nonoption. That is the only point I really take exception to. I agree that OOA should never happen, and it never has to me or anyone I dive with. I would like to think more than luck is involved in that.....

 

[MikeFerrara]

Again, 100% agreed, except sometimes the snowball effect doesn't happen at 5 minute intervals. It is plausable, though incredibly unlikely, for everything to go south within a matter of seconds. I don't expect to ever face such a set of circumstances, but if I do, I hope to be prepared to deal with it. It may be a simple matter of philosophy, but I don't feel like I have needed to make a tremendous investment in staying fresh on CESA procedure, and as a result, I have one last trick in my back pocket if I ever need it.

I think this "snowball effect merits attention. Everything doesn't just "go south" on it's own. Something happens or a mistake is made. The failure to adequately manage that problem causes another and maybe another until we either get a handle on things or have no hope of coping and panic. Unless we're caugt in an earthquake or have a heart attack these "things" that happen aren't usually some mysterious act of God. They're usually things that we have a really good chance of forseeing, understanding and preparing for and the idea is to break that chain (stop the snowball) as early as we can. I think that diving with bad buddies, instabuddies that we have no confidence in, deeper than where we are confident in our access to the surface and so on that we put ourselves in a position where things are very very likely to go south and we have little chance of managing it. Maybe we can't control everything but I know that we can't do everything wrong and expect it to come out right.

 

[Dan Gibson]

Try to think of some ways it goes pair shaped that quickly. My guess is there are many on this board who could pick that (and most any) scenario apart and show you that it didn't really happen that quickly. People just think it does because they are not really aware of it happening prior to the Oh Sh#$ moment.

except sometimes the snowball effect doesn't happen at 5 minute intervals. It is plausable, though incredibly unlikely, for everything to go south within a matter of seconds.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Some of Soggy's and others' comments have given the impression that CESA isn't a last option, it is a nonoption. That is the only point I really take exception to. I agree that OOA should never happen, and it never has to me or anyone I dive with. I would like to think more than luck is involved in that.....

Given the type of diving Soggy typically does, CESA IS a nonoption for him.

I think a lot of the issues you are dealing with are a matter of perspective. If you have been diving for 19 years and your profile is correct, you're averaging less than 5 dives per year. That's not to denigrate ... but to point out that the type of diving you do is very different ... and provides a very different perspective ... than the type of diving done by the people you are taking exception to.

When you reach the level of training, and the type of diving, that Soggy, Mike, and others you are trying so hard to argue with are doing, you have learned how to deal with virtually any problem you'll encounter underwater ... because you will HAVE to. You will have learned how to recognize the circumstances that could lead to those problems, and how to take steps to avoid them. You will have learned how to prepare for contingencies in the event of an equipment malfunction ... or even a momentary brain fart.

Typical recreational divers don't have that perspective, because they haven't received that level of training, nor experienced the level of diving that requires it.

Hence, your priorities will be rather different than those you are disagreeing with.

In effect, we are three blind men describing an elephant ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)