What is the deepest you can do an OOA?

[H2Andy]

Do you consider this a reasonalble statement.

"My experience is that, because of the way I dive, there isn't a realistic scenario that would lead to a CESA.

yes, i consider it a reasonable statement.

i would not consider the following statement a reasonable statement:

"My experience is that, because of the way I dive, there is no chance I will ever do a CESA."

but note that they are two very different statements. the qualifier "realistic scenario" in the first statement makes a lot of difference.

it speaks of probability rather than possibility.

in other words, the possibility is always there, but the probability is low

 

[gangrel441]

yes, i consider it a reasonable statement.

i would not consider the following statement a reasonable statement:

"My experience is that, because of the way I dive, there is no chance I will ever do a CESA."

but note that they are two very different statements. the qualifier "realistic scenario" in the first statement makes a lot of difference.

it speaks of probability rather than possibility.

in other words, the possibility is always there, but the probability is low

The probability of OOA is low. So air share drills are not useful.

The probability of a team member getting bent or having a heart attack is low, so learning rescue skills is not practical.

Hell, the probability of anyone ever having a heart attack in front of you is pretty low, so why even bother with CPR?

As I said earlier...whatever.

 

[H2Andy]

no, i'm sorry, you continue to miss my point

you practice and stress the high probability items more than the low probability items

i don't practice CPR on every dive

i practice OOA on every dive

see?

 

[JeffG]

no, i'm sorry, you continue to miss my point

you practice and stress the high probability items more than the low probability items

i don't practice CPR on every dive

i practice OOA on every dive

see?

WHATEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[gangrel441]

no, i'm sorry, you continue to miss my point

you practice and stress the high probability items more than the low probability items

i don't practice CPR on every dive

i practice OOA on every dive

see?

I agree with all of the above. But getting back to the root of the discussion, I don't think any of us practice a CESA on every dive, either. It is something we practice once in a while, as a skill with a very low probability of ever becoming a necessity. It is not the ONLY OOA procedure I practice, and it is not the first, second, third, or 25th option. It is the parachute we keep behind the pilot's seat just in case.

Going back to the comment about no reasonable chance one would ever need to use it...I can accept that...but what about when the circumstances, as they tend to do occasionally, turn unreasonable? If people practice a proper CESA on just a couple of dives a year, they will be spending very little time or risk, and no money whatsoever, on keeping a skill honed that one day may bail them out of a bad situation. I don't see the logic in not doing this. No one is saying every dive you do should end by practicing a CESA from 60 ft. But reminding yourself once in a great while that you can swim your rig to the surface in an OOA situation if circumstances dictate may go a long way to preventing a diver who finds himself in an improbable situation from panicing and drowning. Yes?

 

[dbulmer]

gangrel,
Periodically I do practice a CESA but in the confines of a pool - I also practice disconnecting inflator hose/drysuit hose but again if I have to choose what is the more likely scenario with the people I dive with then it will be OOA, DSMB deployment and mask removal. The CESA is down the list for me personally because I try to dive in a way that does not cause surprises for my buddies. I don't always succeed but it's worth trying.

 

[gangrel441]

gangrel,
Periodically I do practice a CESA but in the confines of a pool - I also practice disconnecting inflator hose/drysuit hose but again if I have to choose what is the more likely scenario with the people I dive with then it will be OOA, DSMB deployment and mask removal. The CESA is down the list for me personally because I try to dive in a way that does not cause surprises for my buddies. I don't always succeed but it's worth trying.

I don't disagree with where you place CESA on the list. What I disagree with is not having it on the list at all. This is the attitude I have seen in some posts on this thread. It is usually accompanied by arguments that "I would never find myself in a position to need it because of proper preparation and training." This is where it all goes wrong in my book, because the person who received the training is human, as is the person/persons who provided the training. Nothing (acknowledged, including CESA) is infalable. But it seems silly to spend $100 on a wrench to put in the tool box, but throw away the screwdriver that someone tries to give you for free.

 

[dbulmer]

Gangrel,
the problem is that proper training and preparation is often the most efficient and desirable course of action when dealing with the unexpected - the problem with the freebie screwdiver is that you can forget you have it in the first place because you've got so used to using the wrench

Where I did find CESA useful one time was during DSMB practice when I stupidly let go off the spool, found the line again and grabbed it (And yes poor skill comes into play there ) resulting in a fast ascent in a drysuit. During the ascent I breathed out the whole time and despite being horizontal Murphy had me - fortunately I survived it without any adverse effects but it did make me more determined to get more DSMB practice simply because in the UK it is the norm that every diver has to be prepared to put up a DSMB with or without a buddy's help.

 

[gangrel441]

Gangrel,
the problem is that proper training and preparation is often the most efficient and desirable course of action when dealing with the unexpected - the problem with the freebie screwdiver is that you can forget you have it in the first place because you've got so used to using the wrench

Ahh...but that sounds more like an error of familiarity to me. Where it would be a real problem is if you got so attracted to using the freebie screwdriver that you didn't bother to lay out the $100 on the wrench. But that is not a problem I think is commonplace among the posters on this thread. Certainly, I don't believe that is a problem I face...

Where I did find CESA useful one time was during DSMB practice when I stupidly let go off the spool, found the line again and grabbed it (And yes poor skill comes into play there ) resulting in a fast ascent in a drysuit. During the ascent I breathed out the whole time and despite being horizontal Murphy had me - fortunately I survived it without any adverse effects but it did make me more determined to get more DSMB practice simply because in the UK it is the norm that every diver has to be prepared to put up a DSMB with or without a buddy's help.

A great story! And it illustrates what many of us here have been trying to get across...that we're all human, no matter how much training we hay have. Sometimes Murphy finds you on his own, sometimes you help him out a little. But the best way to fend ole' Murph off is to know and be able to use as many options as possible.

Would you agree that as we go on, our arguments are getting more and more in line with eachother? Among various martial arts, we often use the analogy that we are all climbing the same mountain to the same peak, we are just climbing it from different sides on different paths and ridges. Sure, there are a few out there who wander off and wind up on the wrong mountain , but most of us are on the right path.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Lets take a quick look at how recreational diving is often taught...

No real gas management is taught or required.
Aside from some kneeling air shares there isn't much team diving that takes place in entry level training...following the instructor around in a pack.

The use of redundant equipment is not taught or required.

PEr the text, CESA gets third place in the priority list of what to do in an OOA or LOA situation right behind 1, a normal ascent if you are just low on air and 2, sharing air with a buddy. Buddy breathing isn't even a requirement. By design, they are limiting us to only two OOA options...share or CESA.

No wonder the CESA seems so popular here. When diving is taught this way, being able to do a CESA would seem necessary because the need is a very real possibility and without changing a bunch of other stuff I'd never remove it from training. Come on, it accounts for half the options they give us. Maybe it's not to bad of a setup for real shallow easy dives but divers are going much further than that without any significant skill or equipment additions.

When a diver is limited to j-valves and no SPG it was probably also a very real possibility. Of course, there was a time when divers were required to be able to swim and to be more dependant on watermenship skills than equipment but that's no longer true.

On the other end of the spectrum we have the methods employed in overhead environments. You can't swim through rock and you, demonstrably, don't need to. Those same methods work just as well in OW and, if you employ them, I doubt that you'll ever need to do a CESA.