What is the deepest you can do an OOA?

[Soggy]

Because of the way I drive there isn't a realistic scenario that could lead to an accident. Oh yea!

That might be a reasonable analogy if you had a thousand other divers all on scooters running around during your dive. Otherwise, the validity of the metaphor is lost.

 

[fweber]

I think you're missing the point's being made about CESA's being a basic skill that can prevent people from feeling paniced. But, we'll discuss gas planning and buddymanship instead.

OK ... earlier you wrote ...


First of all, unless you were diving large doubles then your first mistake was determining your rock bottom to be 750 psi. On even a large single cylinder such as a 130 it should be much higher than that for a depth of 80 feet.

Really? How much so? And why? Dependent upon tank size 750 can be plenty to surface 2 divers from 80 feet and even include safety stop. 80ft, 30ftmin ascent rate(we'll ignore an emergency 60), 3 mins at 15 feet(optional), .75cf/min SAC, X2 for me and the buddy. Even one of my old 72's still has 20.5 cubic in it at 750.

My first question would be "what do you mean by rock bottom?" Are you calculating how much gas it would take to get both you and your buddy safely to the surface using the standard rules of rock bottom (e.g. 30 fpm with stops)? Did you start by asking yourself, if either myself or my buddy lost our gas RIGHT NOW, would the other buddy have enough to get us both to the surface safely? If the answer to either of those questions is no, then you are not calculating rock bottom. That's your first mistake

Yes, Yes. See above, Second first mistake averted.

... you're too deep for the reserve you're allowing.

Dude, come on, we're talking about 80 feet here not 180. I can't, but an awful lot of folks can snorkel to the depth we're discussing.

Second mistake ... if you cannot get your buddy's attention then you are effectively diving solo.

Ah, it doesn't take much to be outside touch contact and lights don't work very well in reasonably clear water, mid day with plenty of light, all it takes is, your buddy distracted for a moment. By your definition all dives are solo,....so plan accordingly.

Now, you can choose to do that ... but in that case you should be diving a redundant supply. You're bug hunting, so you knew in advance that there'd be times when you and your buddy would be swimming in a formation that would not allow for constant surveillance of each other. So plan your configuration accordingly.

Aaaaaa, Never mind. You guys should and need to take all the equipment available to ensure you can float back to the surface. I'm sorry for suggesting otherwise.

Out here we also bug hunt ... but for dungeness crabs rather than lobsters. We have contingencies that account for depth, formation, "lost" buddy, etc. If we're going to 80 feet, we pretty much plan it as a solo dive and pack ponies.

Adherence to basic gas management rules would've prevented the need for a CESA in your situation ... even with the equipment failure that you experienced.

If this makes sense to you, and if you want to learn more, PM me your e-mail addy. I'll send you a paper I wrote on gas management that might help you understand better how to plan for such contingencies.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

You sort of missed my initial point, which was: Soggy has stated there are many singlar ways that someone could find themselves needed to share gas, but that it would take some massively unlikely combination to result in a need for a CESA. My point was that it only takes one additional contributing factor, the lack of a ready buddy.

I used a scenario as an example, it did not happen to me personally, although I knew the participants. I've only once had to perform an CESA outside practice situations, several years ago, under much different circumstances.

Anyhow. Onto things more interesting.

 

[captain]

These do not say the same thing ... so what's the point?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

They'er both based on the delusion that we humans can control all things at all times , ain't going to happen.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I think you're missing the point's being made about CESA's being a basic skill that can prevent people from feeling paniced. But, we'll discuss gas planning and buddymanship instead.

Actually, I agree it's a basic skill ... one that I and every other OW instructor teaches. Where we disagree, perhaps, is the priority one should place on when it's an appropriate response.

As to the gas management and buddy stuff, I see that our approaches to diving are so far apart as to make any further discussion along those lines meaningless. As I said earlier, perhaps with your approach to diving, the ability to be able to perform a CESA should be a high priority. I choose to mitigate those risks in other ways.

I am not suggesting that I will never be in a position to have to do a CESA ... I am suggesting that your approach to diving makes the likelihood much higher than mine.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[H2Andy]

They'er both based on the delusion that we humans can control all things at all times , ain't going to happen.

well, again, this is a strawman argument ... that's not at issue. OF COURSE humans can't control all things at all times

the issue, though, is what you should emphasise when planning and executing your dives. if you spend most of your preparation on other things, the likelihood of a CESA being necessary are reduced considerably

of course not eliminated, just reduced considerably

and that's what i would spend my energy doing

i also find that the "it's ok, i'll do a CESA" mentality cuts corners and makes assumptions that if not cut and/or made could easily prevent the need to do a CESA 90% in the first place. even worse, it puts you in positions where the likelihood that you will NEED to do a CESA increase

by all means, know how to do a CESA

then spend the bulk of your time making sure you never have to

 

[mdb]

They'er both based on the delusion that we humans can control all things at all times , ain't going to happen.

Captain: Of course your are correct. I'm sure we will continue to hear from the same crowd that you are not. When the SHTF some of these folks, most likely, would be "behind the rock". As we used to say in Vietnam: Big talk, no walk. As you pointed out it is the human factor that will play out in a real emergency.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

They'er both based on the delusion that we humans can control all things at all times , ain't going to happen.

There are only two guarantees in life ... and neither has anything to do with diving.

Risk mitigation doesn't assume a 100% success rate ... ever.

As to how that relates to CESA, I will only say that the last person I know who attempted one died. So even that skill offers no guarantee ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[gangrel441]

i also find that the "it's ok, i'll do a CESA" mentality cuts corners and makes assumptions that if not cut and/or made could easily prevent the need to do a CESA 90% in the first place. even worse, it puts you in positions where the likelihood that you will NEED to do a CESA increase

The same can be said of the "it's ok, I have a pony" idea. What's your point?

 

[captain]

well, again, this is a strawman argument ... that's not at issue. OF COURSE humans can't control all things at all times

the issue, though, is what you should emphasise when planning and executing your dives. if you spend most of your preparation on other things, the likelihood of a CESA being necessary are reduced considerably

of course not eliminated, just reduced considerably

and that's what i would spend my energy doing

i also find that the "it's ok, i'll do a CESA" mentality cuts corners and makes assumptions that if not cut and/or made could easily prevent the need to do a CESA 90% in the first place. even worse, it puts you in positions where the likelihood that you will NEED to do a CESA increase

by all means, know how to do a CESA

then spend the bulk of your time making sure you never have to

Do you consider this a reasonalble statement.

"My experience is that, because of the way I dive, there isn't a realistic scenario that would lead to a CESA.

If CESA is changed heart attach would you say that is a reasonable statement. It is a complete denial of the possibility. I find it very disturbing he has that mentality. I may not dive the way Soggy does but I don't totally rule out the possibility of any one thing happening.

 

[Soggy]

If CESA is changed heart attach would you say that is a reasonable statement.

Of course not. A heart attack is out of your control. It would be a completely different type of statement, just like the car accident analogy earlier.

It is a complete denial of the possibility. I find it very disturbing he has that mentality. I may not dive the way Soggy does but I don't totally rule out the possibility of any one thing happening.

Read what I said above when I agreed with TSandM. I do not deny the possibility of it happening, but it's likeliness is so incredibly low that it is not worth "practicing" given that the act of practicing itself is dangerous and not really a skill in and of itself. Swim up, don't hold your breath. Tough skill.

Sorry you it disturbing. I'm disturbed that people don't see how easily preventable this can be and that they waste time practicing it when that time would be much better served practicing prevention.