What is "real experience"

[deepblueme]

This was going to be a reply to the Inst factory thread but i felt it should have its own life.



It seems to me that most of the detractors of the zero to hero courses claim “real experience” as a reason that the DM/Inst canidates that pass these programs are not up to snuff as professionals.

I have seen many reasons listed for the lack of “real experience” but I have yet to see anyone list having to do a “real” rescue as one. That is a rescue that the victim was in need of medical assistance or where the victim was not revived.

Should this not also be part of the “real experience” required if we are going to claim a lack of experience for the prospective future Instructional level professionals certifaction?

What is it that makes up “real experience”?

A set number for dives to a given depth/time?
Being able to present the materials to a level that a student grasps?
Being able to tie a bowline?
Set an anchor?
Run a compressor?
Mix gas?
Know how you will react when a diver is no longer breathing?
Demonstrate buoyancy control?
Know how to use a Drysuit?
Take a picture?
Judge a current at depth?

How many Staff level people out there are able to do all of the above?

 

[letterboy]

 

[TSandM]

I'm not an instructor, and I'm not going to address the list of specific questions. But something I've seen as I've racked up more dives is that I've run into a number of problems or challenges underwater, and I've had to come up with solutions or make decisions. Whether it's been dealing with a freeflow, recognizing an upcurrent for what it was, finding a lost anchor line, diving in pitch darkness in less than five feet of viz, or whatever, it's made me build a library of responses and decision-making strategies, and it's also made me learn to control my own anxiety/panic reactions.

My biggest worry with inexperienced instructors is that they may be poorly prepared to cope with the number of ways a new diver can make life interesting. On my third OW dive, I got separated from my instructor, tumbled to the bottom alone, in poor viz, in current, at a site where the bottom drops off very quickly to beyond recreational depths. My instructor, who was brand new (I was the first student he certified), was frantically searching for me, although as it turned out I was fine. The incident was a non-issue, but one wonders . . . with more experience, might he have chosen another site? Or another time? Or been better prepared not to lose a student on descent in current? I don't know the answers, but those are the questions.

 

[SparticleBrane]

 

[SparticleBrane]

IMy biggest worry with inexperienced instructors is that they may be poorly prepared to cope with the number of ways a new diver can make life interesting. On my third OW dive, I got separated from my instructor, tumbled to the bottom alone, in poor viz, in current, at a site where the bottom drops off very quickly to beyond recreational depths. My instructor, who was brand new (I was the first student he certified), was frantically searching for me, although as it turned out I was fine. The incident was a non-issue, but one wonders . . . with more experience, might he have chosen another site? Or another time? Or been better prepared not to lose a student on descent in current? I don't know the answers, but those are the questions.

Where was he, exactly, during the dive? The only way to lose your student is by NOT having good position as the personal in a leadership role. When I'm escorting students I'm right on top of them during the first dive. They dive as a buddy team and I'm hoving a foot or two above them both. For successive dives I slowly back away as they become more comfortable. There's no excuse for losing a new open water student. :no

 

[chickdiver]

This was going to be a reply to the Inst factory thread but i felt it should have its own life.



It seems to me that most of the detractors of the zero to hero courses claim “real experience” as a reason that the DM/Inst canidates that pass these programs are not up to snuff as professionals.

I have seen many reasons listed for the lack of “real experience” but I have yet to see anyone list having to do a “real” rescue as one. That is a rescue that the victim was in need of medical assistance or where the victim was not revived.

Should this not also be part of the “real experience” required if we are going to claim a lack of experience for the prospective future Instructional level professionals certifaction?

What is it that makes up “real experience”?

A set number for dives to a given depth/time?
Being able to present the materials to a level that a student grasps?
Being able to tie a bowline?
Set an anchor?
Run a compressor?
Mix gas?
Know how you will react when a diver is no longer breathing?
Demonstrate buoyancy control?
Know how to use a Drysuit?
Take a picture?
Judge a current at depth?

How many Staff level people out there are able to do all of the above?

OK, I'll bite. I am an instructor, and have been since 1994. I had been diving since 1986 at that time. Some of your examples here are subjective, and some are dependant on other factors.

SO:

Set number of dives to a given depth/time

too subjective. I have seen people go sit in 15' of water for 20 minutes repeatedly to meet minimum leadership requirements. This is not diving. I would far rather see a candidate with 100 dives in various conditions and locations than a candidate with 200 dives int he same quarry.

Be able to present materials.....

ABSOLUTELY. If you cannot present the materials in a clear and understandable manner, then you have no business being an instructor.

Tie a Bowline

Does the instructor in question also crew on a boat? This is situationally dependant.

Set an anchor

Situationally dependant

Run a compressor

Situationally dependant

Mix gas

Is it relevant to the class? I would say yes to a Trimix instructor, but not necessarily for someone who only teaches basic OW.

Know how to react when a diver is no longer breathing

WITHOUT DOUBT

Demonstrate bouyancy control

If you can't demonstrate it, how can you possibly expect to teach it?

Know how to use a drysuit

Does the instructor in question teach in the carribean? or Washington State? The Red Sea? Norway?

Take a picture

Does the instructor have an interest in photography? Teach a photo specialty? I don't spearfish, does that mean that to be an instructor I should know how to hunt UW?

Judge a current at depth

Definitely

 

[Gary D.]

I have seen many reasons listed for the lack of “real experience” but I have yet to see anyone list having to do a “real” rescue as one. That is a rescue that the victim was in need of medical assistance or where the victim was not revived.

Consider yourself among the lucky ones. Actually seeing a person die in front of you can be very traumatic to a very large percentage of the population.

Many occupations plan and train for life threatening situations that may or may not occur. Diving is no different. An actual situation SHOULD NOT be a requirement. If it was there would be a feeding frenzy from everyone trying to get the brownie points. These situations are few and far between.

I for one, as a LEO have trained for over 30 years on how to end someone’s life in various ways. But it has never happened and I pray it never does. On the other hand I have trained to save a life. Fortunately that one has happened several times and I hope it happens again.

Training can prepare you for almost any given situation. It’s how you actually react to a real scenario that counts.

Gary D.

 

[chickdiver]

Where was he, exactly, during the dive? The only way to lose your student is by NOT having good position as the personal in a leadership role. When I'm escorting students I'm right on top of them during the first dive. They dive as a buddy team and I'm hoving a foot or two above them both. For successive dives I slowly back away as they become more comfortable. There's no excuse for losing a new open water student. :no

Charles,

Most instructors teaching for a shop do not have the luxury of nearly unlimited assistants (which I know the NC State program does). Typically it is 1 instructor to 6 students, 8 students with a DM. This is a subject Brian and I have had many interesting conversations about, since we became instructors at about the same time, but have vastly different experiences in theaching environments. Trust me when I say that in crummy vis with 6 students to look after, it can be challenging. That is the point when experience and judgement have to rule, and perhaps the instructor ends up doing 2x the number of dives for the day, and working with students in smaller groups to facilitate safety.

 

[drbill]

One can do a hundred or a thousand dives and not have "real experience" with some of the things I think are important.

Some of the things you list above seem rather irrelevant to the actual duties of a working DM/instructor.

Ones I would list include the following:

1. Knowledge of how the diver responds to real world problems including equipment failure, diver-in-trouble scenarios, etc. Do they react calmly to the problem or panic? One can't really tell until one has had a few real world encounters. I have seen "experienced" divers who can't handle it when such an issue suddenly appears on the scene.

2. Knowledge of how you personally respond to narcosis. This can be acquired over the course of 50-100 dives for the most part, but keep in mind that narcosis affects divers differently on different days: under different environmental and physiological conditions, etc.

3. People skills which one generally acquires after receiving certification during real work situations.

I have 45 years of diving experience and several thousand dives under my belt in a wide variety of conditions. I've had equipment "fail" on me and tested how I react to such situations. I have a pretty good understanding of how I react to narcosis and under what conditions it may pose problems. I have very good people skills (as a teacher and business managerfor many decades). Despite having these, I still question my ability to be a good instructor... and therefore am not.

 

[DeepBound]