What does certification REALLY mean?

[austriandiveress]

Hi! I'm rather new to the board (registered ages ago, but just really started participating regularly), so please excuse me if this topic has already been dealt with ad nauseum. That said....
What I simply dont understand about the various organizations is this: as I travel around diving (or also here in the Forum) I meet many, many divers who are, on paper, much more qualified than I. Master Divers/Dive Masters and even instructors, yet many have with well under 100 dives.
Last year as OW I was paired with a guy who had his AOW... I had at the time 83 logged dives, he had 14. He led the dive, as the "more advanced" diver. This really made me start to think about this, especially as I know of wrecks in Croatia where you MUST have AOW as a minimum. (but then, what does AOW mean?)
I have been diving for 3 years, and have logged about 120 dives. I now have AOW. I am certainly not the best diver on the planet, but the experience that I've collected is rather varied: cold water (the lakes here in Europe), Eygpt, Croatia, wrecks, night, deep etc., and I feel pretty confidant that I am a responsible buddy.
I know plenty of people who get all kinds of certifications in quite a brief time period, like during a vactaion to some lovely warm place, and would like to ask: if somebody hasnt had much practical experience, diving in various kinds of water, different conditions, etc. , what does it matter how "qualified" he is on paper? As I continue my diving eduction I want the skill levels that I earn to mean something, to others as well as to myself.
I'd be grateful to hear some opinions on this!

 

[kadleck]

You make many good points. Clearly you are way more experienced than I am; and I would concede that point if we were to buddy. There are many 'badge collectors', and if you wish to be brutal I am one of them (because I did AOW almost immediately after OW). I do not take my AOW 'status' to mean that I will dive 40 metres every time. Indeed I like to photograph at relatively shallow depths, where the best fish/coral are around here.

I believe that the qualification is primarily a license to learn. I am learning all the time, but I will always take an experienced person's advice rather than, say, a DM (unless of course he is experienced too!).

The main reason for me taking some specialist courses (leading to AOW) was not for collecting the badges, though that's probably what it looks like. Rather, it was in itself to gain more experience in a safer (instructor led, rather than buddy led) environment. OK, because I did not feel qualified enough to dive with a buddy after just 4 OW dives and a bunch of time kneeling at the bottom of a pool!

I am taking a PADI Rescue Diver class now (half way through). Will I feel more 'qualified' after it? Probably not, but I already feel more 'comfortable' (a) in my own abilities, (b) in recognising what can go wrong with my diving, and (c) being more watchful of my buddy. But will I be any more experienced? Not really. But I'm happy with the knowledge that I may, some day, be able to class myself as experienced.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I agree with kadleck in that just because I got my AOW, I did not and still do not consider myself an advanced diver. I wanted the AOW for more training. Since AOW, I still read a great deal about diving, diving skills, and diving situations. I am at 99 dives (wow!), but still feel I have so much more to learn, although I try to make sure I'm a safe diver. I feel I still have much to learn about navigation, which I think comes from actual diving.

And just like Padleck, I'm in the process of taking the Rescue Diver course.

 

[offthewall1]

Hi! I'm rather new to the board (registered ages ago, but just really started participating regularly), so please excuse me if this topic has already been dealt with ad nauseum. That said....
What I simply dont understand about the various organizations is this: as I travel around diving (or also here in the Forum) I meet many, many divers who are, on paper, much more qualified than I. Master Divers/Dive Masters and even instructors, yet many have with well under 100 dives.
Last year as OW I was paired with a guy who had his AOW... I had at the time 83 logged dives, he had 14. He led the dive, as the "more advanced" diver. This really made me start to think about this, especially as I know of wrecks in Croatia where you MUST have AOW as a minimum. (but then, what does AOW mean?)
I have been diving for 3 years, and have logged about 120 dives. I now have AOW. I am certainly not the best diver on the planet, but the experience that I've collected is rather varied: cold water (the lakes here in Europe), Eygpt, Croatia, wrecks, night, deep etc., and I feel pretty confidant that I am a responsible buddy.
I know plenty of people who get all kinds of certifications in quite a brief time period, like during a vactaion to some lovely warm place, and would like to ask: if somebody hasnt had much practical experience, diving in various kinds of water, different conditions, etc. , what does it matter how "qualified" he is on paper? As I continue my diving eduction I want the skill levels that I earn to mean something, to others as well as to myself.
I'd be grateful to hear some opinions on this!

This really is beating a dead horse... but...

There is no certification that amounts to a hill of beans.

There are people out there diving who have been diving for 30+ years and are superior divers (skill and experience wise) to virtually every Instructor, Instructor Trainer and Instructor Certifier on the planet.

I can't speak for every country in the world - but here in the USA, there is no legal requirement which has to be met to go diving. Certifications sprang up for 2 reasons.

1. Profit. All agencies were started by someone out to make a profit. They have no more basis for existence than that
2. Lawyers and Insurance Companies got involved with the agencies (again for profit) and made it sound like anyone who helped someone go diving would lose everything if they didn't hide behind certifications and cover themselves by insurance.

So unlike the old days when Earl learned how to dive from Jesse and they went out for an enjoyable afternoon on Billy Bob's boat... now people spend enormous amounts of money due to businessmen, lawyers and Insurance agents that they might otherwise put toward diving.

The fear was that unless the industry regulated itself, government might step in and none of the early entrepreneurs wanted that... so they joined with the lawyers and insurers and today - this is what you're stuck with.

You don't need a cert to go diving - unless you want to dive with someone else who's lawyer told them you need to show them one.

This has a lot to do with why so many advanced divers can't dive worth a poo and is what led you to ask this question... Hurry up, give them a c-card... take some more money give them an advanced card... nevermind they only have 10 dives. They need it to go on that dive trip - advanced cert is required.

God help us all... I'd dive with 10 divers who learned in the 70's with no certs before I'd dive with 10 PADI Instructors from the past decade... I'd feel a lot better about the chance of being rescued if god forbid I needed help.

 

[covediver]

On a practicle level, it signfies that you have demonstrated the minimum skill and knowledge for that certification. Nothing more or less. For many people, it is a tangible artifact that they have achieved a certain skill level, much like merit badges in the Scouts. Not a bad thing, just an individual orientation that really doesn't detract from my diving, unless they get in my face with it which most divers don't. I equate certification with getting a drivers license, which shows that you have minimum competency to operate a motor vehicle and know enough about the vehicle code to pass a test. At that point you need to gain experience, which is why many states have "graduated" requirements for teen drivers.

People learn and get experiences in different ways. Some like the structure and sociability of a structured course. Others like to learn by doing. My education has been a combination of both. I have had really good instructors having done most of my training in a university setting.

Yes, there is a marketing aspect. But I had a marketing professor insist that you really won't buy something that you don't want. I do find it on that a Master diver can be achieved in as few dives as it requires, but if a certification impresses someone, chances are they are easily impressed.

 

[Walter]

AOW is meaningless.

 

[irishsquid]

AOW is meaningless.

It has been mentioned numerous times on this board; some boats won't let you on for some dives w/o an AOW. I'd have to agree with you that the AOW Cert by itself is meaningless in regards to skills/knowledge, however; it does have a value for those wanting to get on boats to dive and practice the skills and to gain further experiences.

 

[Walter]

I didn't say it doesn't provide access, just that it is meaningless.

 

[TTT103]

Think about how quickly the badges can be earned. Are they more imprortant to ego's or do they really demonstrate an elevated knowledge base? All the certifications in the world can't equal real experience. Think about it, a non-diver could theoretically become certified, AOW certified, and finally a rescue diver in a couple of weeks.

Although I am a DM, I would not even think about putting my skill set up against my father's who is only Open Water Certified, but also has well over 1,000+ dives under his belt. As was previously mentioned in this thread, the diver certification agencies are in business to make money. That is why they begin selling you on your next badge before you even finish your current one.

 

[drbill]

I've been diving for many decades and still feel I've got much to learn. Others say I'm an excellent diver, but I still leave a dust cloud behind me that blinds even bat rays.

Today's certifications are greatly watered down compared to those of the 60's. My LA County open water class took us through the current OW, AOW and rescue in one certification although it took three weeks even for the intensive short course I was in.

I have seen instructors who could neither put the mask strap on their own personal mask, the BCD on their tank properly, or control their buoyancy to the point where they crashed on top of table coral and broke off half of a 6 foot structure. Other instructors had no clue what the LA County certification means (they should ask the founders of PADI and NAUI) and required me to do "check out" dives when I'd been diving far longer than they'd been alive.

Just had a discussion at the dive park today with another diver about how one could get certified as an instructor with only 100 dives. Personally I think that is absolutely absurd. I've got thousands and I'm not ready to advance to that level.