What does an instructor offer?

[TMHeimer]

Once upon a time I was a professional trombonist. Yes, I had teachers, instructors, mentors, coaches and in time I became a leader. But all of those people only have so much time to spend on you. It's up to you to do the woodshedding. I can't begin to tell you how many countless thousands of hours I invested in becoming the best that I could be. It would be comparable to the bottom time logged by saturation and commercial divers...

I hear ya. Same here.

 

[Panama Jones]

as a simple example, try to get a nitrox fill at a shop with an PADI OW card. They might fill it, they might not. But if they don't fill it, the reason is not because of legislation, it is because they are trying to do their part to help self-regulate the scuba industry.

There it is.....in bold italic underline.

However, I as stated earlier. I am now in alignment with instruction. Thanks

Addendum - just learned something that no one came up with. WRSTC was put in place to ward of scuba legislation in the 70s. With it came ANSI standard Z86.3. This is actually getting pretty close to true self regulation.

 

[boulderjohn]

I am a little confused by the premise of the argument here. It seems to me that the OP is saying that a diver could hire a competent diver to teach the course and then go in and get examined to see if the instruction was adequate and the student deserves to pass.

1. How does the student know that the diver he has hired to provide the instruction is competent to do so? Would that diver have to have some kind of a certification to provide that training? If so, how would that certification be obtained? If not, how does the student know that this isn't just some guy who really doesn't have a clue?

2. How would this competent diver know what concepts and skills will be tested on the exam?

3. Where will the student and competent instructor get the instructional materials and scuba equipment to be used in the instructional process?

4. Who would test this person to see if something was learned properly? What would that person's credentials be? How would they be attained?

5. What recourse would the student have upon failing the exam? Is the instructing competent diver under any obligation to continue instructing at no additional fee?

6. Finally, as I understand the OP's argument, this would lower the cost of instruction, because the competent diver would presumably work at a lower wage than a certified instructor. In my case, I usually make something less than minimum wage when I instruct. How much less does the OP expect that competent divers will charge, or is the assumption that these divers will spend many hours teaching the concepts and skills of basic scuba diving for free?

 

[Panama Jones]

I am a little confused by the premise of the argument here. It seems to me that the OP is saying that a diver could hire a competent diver to teach the course and then go in and get examined to see if the instruction was adequate and the student deserves to pass.

1. How does the student know that the diver he has hired to provide the instruction is competent to do so? Would that diver have to have some kind of a certification to provide that training? If so, how would that certification be obtained? If not, how does the student know that this isn't just some guy who really doesn't have a clue?

2. How would this competent diver know what concepts and skills will be tested on the exam?

3. Where will the student and competent instructor get the instructional materials and scuba equipment to be used in the instructional process?

4. Who would test this person to see if something was learned properly? What would that person's credentials be? How would they be attained?

5. What recourse would the student have upon failing the exam? Is the instructing competent diver under any obligation to continue instructing at no additional fee?

6. Finally, as I understand the OP's argument, this would lower the cost of instruction, because the competent diver would presumably work at a lower wage than a certified instructor. In my case, I usually make something less than minimum wage when I instruct. How much less does the OP expect that competent divers will charge, or is the assumption that these divers will spend many hours teaching the concepts and skills of basic scuba diving for free?

Hi John

Most of you points above are not within what I was saying. First, let me tell you that I am conviced of the value of instruction, not against it. I am convinced of the value of driver training, but it is not mandatory.

My OP was on this theory.

1. New diver studies the material or does on line theory.
2. New diver does some practices with a non instructor diver. Doesn't necessarily have to be hired, a buddy a relative based on the material. Which will state what the diver will be tested on.
3. New diver goes to a qualified dive examiner where the complete written and practical tests.

The reason I orginally posted was based on the numerous posts, conversations etc where people state how stupid it is for a non instructor to take a friend, relative diving in a pool, lake etc as their first experience. It led to me asking for your thoughts on, for OW, why is the professional instructor necessary. Not an attack on instructors.

 

[Diver0001]

My thought pattern was as to why self study, combined with practice with a competent diver, should not suffice to allow a diver to challenge and OW exam if that's the route they choose.

In other fields autodidacts have been known to excel. Jimi Hendrix is a good example that comes to mind. Learning to dive on your own certainly isn't impossible. Nobody taught the Wright brothers how to fly either and yet they did....

Ultimately I think the main argument against self-taught divers really doesn't have to do with regulation or whatever. In terms of risk and complexity it's kind of analogous to learning how to drive a car without any instruction or supervision.... just toss the keys to someone (maybe your child) who has never been behind the wheel before and say, "come back when you think you can pass the test".

Would you do that?

R..

 

[Panama Jones]

In terms of risk and complexity it's kind of analogous to learning how to drive a car without any instruction or supervision.... just toss the keys to someone (maybe your child) who has never been behind the wheel before and say, "come back when you think you can pass the test".

Would you do that?

R..

No, hence my second post.

 

[boulderjohn]

Hi John

Most of you points above are not within what I was saying. First, let me tell you that against that I am conviced of the value of instruction, not against it. I am convince of the value of driver training, but it is not mandatory.

My OP was on this theory.

1. New diver studies the material or does on line theory.
2. New diver does some practices with a non instructor diver. Doesn't necessarily have to be hired, a buddy a relative based on the material. Which will state what the diver will be tested on.
3. New diver goes to a qualified dive examiner where the complete written and practical tests.

The reason I orginally posted was based on the numerous posts, conversations etc where people state how stupid it is for a non instructor to take a friend, relative diving in a pool, lake etc as their first experience. It led to me asking for your thoughts on, for OW, why is the professional instructor necessary. Not an attack on instructors.

You wrote:

My OP was on this theory.

1. New diver studies the material or does on line theory. That is how it is done now. The student signs up for a class and studies at home using either books or the online material. In your case, how does the student get the material to study or the online content? How is it different?
2. New diver does some practices with a non instructor diver. Doesn't necessarily have to be hired, [So someone is going to dedicate how many hours preparing this person for the certification test without pay?] a buddy a relative based on the material. What material? Where was it obtained? Which will state what the diver will be tested on. That will, of course, vary by agency. So this non-certified instructor will have to become familiar with the standards of the agency the student has chosen.
3. New diver goes to a qualified dive examiner where the complete written and practical tests. You do realize that the practical tests for scuba instruction occur during the instruction, don't you? For PADI, there are 20 skills a student must master in the pool. The student is taught them and examined on them all in one flowing process. If the student does not perform well, the instructor continues to instruct until the student finally gets it right. In your version, the student learns all the skills from one person and then goes in and repeats them all for another person. If the student does not perform well on a single skill, then the student is sent home to try again, since this is just an examination, and not instruction. Or did you mean that the examiner just assumes that whoever came up to him for examination has mastered all the skills in the pool and will just take the student out into the ocean without any kind of verification of competence first?

 

[DanLW]

In further defense of instructors, I'd say their value is that they teach a set cirriculum which has been thoroughly vetted. On the other hand, a dive expert may well be able to teach all aspects of diving, but if they are not following a set outline, it would be very easy to accidentally omit an important skill. I'd hate to be at the surface coughing up pink frothy blood and have my dive expert tell me "Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that you shouldn't hold your breath coming up..."

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

First you are assuming parents, friends etc know how to dive. Most adults know how to DRIVE and I suppose could offer instruction to non drivers. My girlfriend is learning to drive at the minute and I chose not to teach her and let an instructor do it instead. I don't want her picking up my bad habits and the instructor knows what she needs to learn to pass the test. So much has changed since I started driving.

As for diving, the same applies. Not everyone knows an "experienced" diver. I certainly didn't when I started and wasn't about to let someone give me a "trust me I can teach you" course. Plus you gotta think about training equipment and first aid etc. While on land we would have access to a car to teach our drivers, would your friend/relative have access to 100% O2, defibrillator, first aid kits, compressors, cylinders, boats, buoys, etc.

There is a lot to be said about a structured course, that can go on to build on the foundation of the initial instruction, rather than "hmm what will I teach you today?" Stick with the instructors and use those that you feel comfortable and safe with.

I've told this story a few times over the years ... my first ever dive on scuba gear took place about 11 years prior to my Open Water class. Back then I was into sailboat racing, and one of our crew was a scuba diver. He'd been doing it for years, had all the gear, and used it to clean our boat bottom prior to races. He once offered to teach me "everything I needed to know" about scuba diving. So one afternoon I took him up on it. We headed up to Lake Winnepesauki in New Hampshire, and headed out of a cove for some diving fun. He showed me how to put the equipment together, explained all about how to use it, and in we went. I spent a glorious 15 minutes or so paddling around in 15 feet of water terrorizing the fish. I'd have gone deeper, but he neglected to tell me how to clear my ears ... so I went as deep as I could stand and stopped there. He also forgot to mention anything about not holding my breath on the ascent. Fortunately, I didn't. It never occurred to me how potentially dangerous that oversight was until 11 years later ... when I took a class ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[toddthecat]