what do you do if?

[MechDiver]

But WITHIN certain ascent rate limits. EVERY dive is an on-gas and off-gas dive and therefore a decompression dive, the lack of stops is just countered by a slow ascent rate to allow time for the off gassing to happen. A dive within NDLs doesnt mean you ignore all the rules.

Did I say ignore all the rules? And Who's rules BTW? And What rules? There are a number of "suggestions" made by OW training agencies, but they are only "rules" when you're in an OW class.

Yea, yea, I know the old "every dive is a deco dive" routine. Whatever.

You can have a very fast ascent rate and still make a clean exit, as long as your are within NDL, all other things being equal. And, yes, people get hits for no apparent reason while following all the rules. Stuff happens.

I'm not going to debate this as its been stomped to death for years. As I said, people get all anal over some of this stuff because they don't know about deco and what it entails. Just some OW stuff they heard in class. Restraint is good, slow ascents are good. But, in an emergency, they can be broken with, most likely, little if any problems in a rec NDL environment.

My point to the original poster is that it is very unlikely he will die an immediate and horrifiing death if he ascends faster than his "computer" thinks he should to help or save a buddy.

Sheesh.

 

[goodknight411]

The 6 minutes at 15 feet was a good itea, but overkill IMO. As long as you don't have a hard ceiling (true required deco) you most likely will/would not have a issue. Rec divers get all wrapped up on this stuff and cause themselves a big bunch of worries over non-things.

MD

Yes, you did the right thing. You tried to help within your training. Be proud of yourself. If you don't feel comfortable with the buddy you get, talk to the DM. Many of them will let you buddy with them, or they will at least keep and extra eye on you and your buddy.

If you felt like you ascended to fast, the six minutes at 15 feet was the right thing to do. I was always taught that if you thought you had pushed it some, to take extra time at your saftey stop, better safe than sorry. Being cautious isn't a bad thing.
Also, if you feel like trying to help may put you in danger the general rule is don't risk it. You can't help anyone if you get hurt, and can reduce there chances for getting proper help.

MechDiver, not trying to jump you or anything, but as rec. divers we arn't trained to know the specifics of decompression diving, so we are trained to err on the side of caution. Don't knock a diver for being conscientious. It's there health/life on the line.

 

[DORSETBOY]

I think you did the rigt thing and from what you said it's prob what I would have done, no good trying to signal to someone if their disappearing above you.. best sometimes just to grab ahold as you did.

training standards vary but everyone can make a mistake, the diver involved may have had a stuck inflation valve.. it's easy for me to say he should have dumped the air but if he was a new diver it's likely he panicked and forgot his training.

 

[zboss]

I went divng at Grand Caymen and my normal dive buddy could not make this dive due to having trouble clearing her ears. I paired up with a quiet individual on the boat who told me he did not have a lot of experience which is great because everybody has to start somewhere and I myself don't have a whole lot of dives (35). Every thing is going great till near the end of the dive. I look around and he is going up at an alarming rate and he looks like he is trying fight it by swimming back done. I signal to him to dump his BC. He still keeps swimming towards me. I ascend to meet him, my computer is pitching a fit and we finally meet I reach over and dump his BC and then dump mine. He has this wide eyed look and the dive master comes and takes control of him. I regain my bouyancy and start my normal ascent and spending 6 mins at 15 feet.

We get on the boat and the dive master comes over and asks how I am doing. I feel fine but I am kinda worried about how fast I was ascending during the incident. The turd I was buddied up with did not even say thanks and just sat there till the boat docked and he just left.

Now my question..what should I have done? After reviewing this with my normal dive buddy (wife) who rips me a new butt
I realize that it could have been much worse but it was a reaction on my part to help this guy. I am still not sure what I would do if it happened again. The only thing I am damn sure about is I will not dive with anybody that I just met and probaly won't dive with anybody other than my wife.

Thoughts?

absolutely and without a doubt! You've had trial by fire and now you know what to expect next time. I would bet that a rapid/OOC accent like this is probably one of the primary incidents (can anyone comment on this?)

You did the right thing extending your stop...

As far as the buddy goes - he probably WAS embarrased... but he should have said thank you, or talked to you about it. There have been times when I have made stipid beginner mistakes like not securing my tank in well enough or not being weighted properly and when someone helps me along I always say "THAT was stupid and THANKS!" I then always offer my new buddy the chance to not buddy up next time. In the last year - these incidents have gotten fewer and fewer as I remember to check all those stupid things that you should always check (and some things they never told you about in A/OW like checking you depth/air guage against you buddies at depth).

So - all in all - great job!

 

[String]

Did I say ignore all the rules? And Who's rules BTW? And What rules? There are a number of "suggestions" made by OW training agencies, but they are only "rules" when you're in an OW class.

No not OW agency rules. The rules that the algorthyms and research the decompression tables are based upon. An NDL dive can become a required stop dive if you ascend faster than the maximum determined rate a table allows for. The whole things are calculated towards certain rates, start violating those rates and the entire table can become null and void. Yes there are safety margins built in but the potential for problems are there (or the max allowed rates would be higher!).

You can have a very fast ascent rate and still make a clean exit, as long as your are within NDL, all other things being equal. And, yes, people get hits for no apparent reason while following all the rules. Stuff happens.

Yes but you have a statistically higher chance of a DCS related incident ascending faster than the tables suggest than you do otherwise. The particlary people most likely to suffer are the ones that think (i) deco == bad (ii) Drive their computer to within minutes of NDLs and then (iii) ascend rapidly above the tables/computer/algorthym max rate.

 

[voop]

The whole premise of recreational NDL diving is the ability to DIRECTLY proceed to the surface if necessary. As I seriously doubt you had incurred any deco obligations on your dive, you most likely would have not had a problem with a direct ascent, provided you obeyed the first rule and did not hold your breath.

The 6 minutes at 15 feet was a good itea, but overkill IMO. As long as you don't have a hard ceiling (true required deco) you most likely will/would not have a issue. Rec divers get all wrapped up on this stuff and cause themselves a big bunch of worries over non-things.

MD

Well, I both agree and disagree. Sting is right in his posting that "recreational dive" [boy, do I hate that term -- when do we retire it here on scubaboard?] within the NDL allows for direct ascents only if you follow an appropriate ascent rate. In this situation, the original poster didn't, and so the risk of getting hurt is increased.

As for this particular situation, I assume that the rapid ascent was still relatively limited (i.e. not from 40m to surface in 2 sec) and that the dive was well within the "recreational" NDL. In that case, MechDiver is probably right: a direct ascent would probably have been possible without getting hurt.

Still, being prudent isn't bad -- so an extended safety stop is a good idea.

I'd like to compliment the original poster on what I think was a quite prudent response and behavior, btw!

Me, had I been forced into a rapid ascent, I'd have done slightly different based on my training and the tables I normally use: I'd have descented to half of my maximum depth for the dive, and stayed there for at least 5 min. During that time I would calculate if I had incured any mandatory deco (org. dive time plus the 5 min spent at half of the depth), and then (after the 5 min) ascent SLOWLY following the deco stops calculated. If the dive was still a "no mandatory deco" dive, I would still do AT LEAST a stop of 2 min at 3m. Because I am a concervative dude, I would probably even stop for 2 min at 9 and 6m, and make the 3m stop longer, even if the deco plan didn't call for it. [Ok, who can guess which tables these are....]

That's probably excessive overkill to some, but it's my ass which goes into the chamber if something goes wrong while I dive....so I'll be as concervative as I please

 

[razor]

Mech Diver

Do you dive for a living? I am a newbie OW diver (35 dives) and everything that is out of the "normal" worries me when I am down there. It sounds like you have a butt load of experience which is why I come to the board with questions like this. I hope that some time in the future I can differentiate the "things" and "non-things" but until then I will ask these stupid questions. Thanks for taking the time for the answers!

 

[MechDiver]

Mech Diver

I can differentiate the "things" and "non-things" but until then I will ask these stupid questions. Thanks for taking the time for the answers!

You did not ask a stupid question, not did you receive a stupid answer. My purpose was to explain to you that you did the right thing to your way of thinking, and that your concern for the rapid ascent and beating yourself up over it, were somewhat misplaced.

Boards have gotten to the point of everyone in the world having opinions on second guessing what someone is saying in a post. As I don't really care anymore and don't have time to post a SJ dissertation, I say what, to me, gets the message across.

And no, you can't make a living diving.

MD

 

[MechDiver]

MechDiver, not trying to jump you or anything, but as rec. divers we arn't trained to know the specifics of decompression diving, so we are trained to err on the side of caution. Don't knock a diver for being conscientious. It's there health/life on the line.

Nobody was getting knocked. You guys need to read what is written instead of inserting your own ideas.

There, that was a knock.

 

[HarleyDiver]

IThe only thing I am damn sure about is I will not dive with anybody that I just met and probaly won't dive with anybody other than my wife.

Thoughts?

I believe a relatively new diver should not pair up with another new diver. You should be VERY comforatable with your ability to save youself before you assume responsibility for another diver. Therefore it is incumbent on those with experience to "giveback" and pairup with rookies sometimes to help them out. Remember we all started as newbies & somebody saved our butts once or twice before we figured it all out. You don't have to be an instructor, just be a mentor.