Whaling thread gone

[H2Andy]

I feel that my southern California culture of growing up on "Disney and Bambi" as someone put it is just as legitamate.

Of course it is... in California

but don't try to make people in Ishipur live by your same codes, creeds, and credos
or judge their actions by your standars.

 

[Kim]

SO, I refuse to feel guilty about being Californian, American, or emphatically asking the same people that are all upset about somebody writing on coral but fine with putting majestic mammals through a slaughter machine to stop.

Why should you be guilty about being Californian? Most non-Americans I know probably think more of California than some other states that I could think of. I've have noticed that some Americans seem to be a bit down on CA though!
As for the coral and the whales I think you are getting a bit mixed up. The recent photograph of the writing on the coral is from the Philippines and it is local Philippine people who are most upset with the wanton vandalism practiced for no cultural reason or benefit. As the Philippines is a diving destination and a lot of tourist income is earned, this kind of practice is damaging. However, the Philippines are not a whaling nation so I don't really see the connection. Whaling is to my mind a rather different issue which is seen by the people who do it as simply another type of fishing and using resources from the sea.

 

[Cacia]

Of course it is... in California

but don't try to make people in Ishipur live by your same codes, creeds, and credos
or judge their actions by your standars.

For your imformation, I happen to live in a fairly Japanese culture of sorts for about four years now. So, unlike you, we, on a daily basis have to harmonize our values and compromise our creeds, codes, and actions. They influence me, I influence them. It is not the "when In Rome do as the Romans do" world as you espouse. Which, by the way is MUCH easier than actually having to work things out with other cultures. I don't know what you know about Honolulu, but if you have problems with other cultures imposing their beliefs, it would probably be too tough for you. My family, on the other hand engages in multicultural daily life that you, in your nice neat pretty homogenous world there, probably don't fully appreciate.
Respectfully, Kim, I think you should give that some thought. I lived another eight years in a place where I was in the 3% of whites. If I have some ethnocentrical "ignorant" world view I would not have survived. I am tired of the condescension of you (and people like you). Somehow that we cannot speak our minds because we are white Americans. I respect the Japanese in many, many ways. And just so you know, I watch busloads of them walk all over the coral here in Hawaii, every single day. They are the worst offenders. Ask anybody here. Ask the Japanese here. Even they will tell you. It is not an attack on their culture.

 

[Mr.X]

. I saw on the news two days ago where this Japanese whaler took a shot at a Greenpeace activist with his harpoon. That is so wrong even if you do not agree with anything Greenpeace does. These are people who have passionate convictions about protecting the environment. Maybe they are fanatics, but that should not excuse that whaler from almost harpooning a human being. Truly one more heartless act.

Many who agree with your (our) position are reading, learning, and watching. You have our support, and gratitude.

Thanks. Having traveled with some of these folks in the lates 70's I can say that they are committed to their cause and are not afraid to take a stand. It's so dangerous to ride a bucking zodiac while running interference between a harpooner and a target whale.

As per cultures - they are designed to change. Cultures hold on to what works, and change, evolve when needed. Cultures that don't evolve slowly wither away from attrition. Consider the Shakers. Additionally, telling whaling cultures to consdier taking a break from harvesting a global species isn't off boundaries. The moratorium was just such a break, but ultimately whalers didn't have much in the way to harvest and make profit.

Funny that someone mentions how we should think. What mental model are you using?

 

[Cacia]

connection. Whaling is to my mind a rather different issue which is seen by the people who do it as simply another type of fishing and using resources from the sea.[/QUOTE
Yea, well I am not "mixed up". I get it. And they are not fish so it cannot be routine fishing. They are a higher life form and one that some of us value. Do you care that our incomes here will effected (whalewatching) when they are all gone? I know, I know, the Minkes are fine. Well ok. And the Philippines need to to knock off all that cyanide fishing and dynamiting of reefs. I do not have the two mixed up. In fact, It is quite possible have traveled as much or more than you and have an understanding that is as worthy as yours. And I am trying to make my case here that the condescension is not helpful. And yes, it is very IRONIC to me that you are so upset (and pissed) about the coral grafitti but defending whaling.

 

[Cacia]

Thanks. Having traveled with some of these folks in the lates 70's I can say that they are committed to their cause and are not afraid to take a stand. It's so dangerous to ride a bucking zodiac while running interference between a harpooner and a target whale.

As per cultures - they are designed to change. Cultures hold on to what works, and change, evolve when needed. Cultures that don't evolve slowly wither away from attrition. Consider the Shakers. Additionally, telling whaling cultures to consdier taking a break from harvesting a global species isn't off boundaries. The moratorium was just such a break, but ultimately whalers didn't have much in the way to harvest and make profit.

Funny that someone mentions how we should think. What mental model are you using?

My thoughts exactly. I had that same thought about the Native American Eskimos in Alaska. Maybe their children could possibly have better lives evolving to the point of not valuing whaling so much anymore. Maybe they would be better served learning something more adaptive to modern society. I fully appreciate the past but the cultures that want to hang back and not adapt are having more problems from what I observe. And I am not a big fan of those ivory trinkets, turtle shell bracelets, etc. I would like to see fashion evolve past that stuff being hip and profitable. It is happening! Just look at all the great faux fur this year! All those flaky actresses and PETA adds are having an effect. YAY. Who cares if they have all the facts perfect? More animals get to keep their hides and we are just as warm and not exactly suffering. And yea, I wear leather shoes, so what? But I do not need silver fox on my Bogner ski jackets anymore. I am evolving, society is evolving, the planet is evolving. It is good. You do not have to lead a perfect life or feel guilty about being made to be a hypocrite to defend the whales. Every bit helps and voicing your opinion registers your "vote". All I am saying Kim, is, guess what? I GET A VOTE. And I think it is ...low to try and make me feel unkind to the poor Japanese whalers for questioning this practice. And to play that tired old worn out "racist" card.

 

[Cacia]

Of course it is... in California

but don't try to make people in Ishipur live by your same codes, creeds, and credos
or judge their actions by your standars.

oh, so I guess I should not say anything about....underage girls in Thailand being used in the sex trade since it is more acceptable there? yea, okay, lets just all mind our own business. I really find debating you two pointless.....almost.

 

[Kim]

Catherine - I'm sorry if you see me as condescending as that is completely not my intention and I feel that you are misunderstanding my viewpoint in this discussion. I am also not questioning how much of the world or other cultures you have seen and experienced (although you appear to be questioning mine).
I have no problem with people who are anti-whaling, stand up and say so, and try to get it stopped from within the IWC. I also have no problem with people who argue that point of view from an objective stand point. I don't and won't eat whale myself and if it was being done for me they could stop doing it tomorrow as I don't need it. Now, you are one of the FEW people who has consistently made a point that what you are against is the whaling itself - done by ANYBODY. Others though have sought to bring racial judgements into the argument by suggesting that people who do it should feel ashamed or are somehow a lesser people because of it. I have seen a lot of different things levelled at the Japanese in the many threads that exist on the board on this topic and this is what I object to - not the argument itself. If you check my posts in the threads concerned I think it will be clear enough that I find it wrong for one culture to try to assume a sort of moral superiority about something that someone else is doing while at the same time defending their own right to behave exactly how they wish even if the whole world is against them. It strikes me as hypocritical. When I see that I feel the need to try to explain from the Japanese perspective the reasons for their actions. This does not mean that I support what they do personally - it simply means that I choose not to judge them by my own standards. Further - there have been many posts containing blatant falsehoods concerning the science and facts underlying the sustainability of whaling as it is happening now. When I have asked posters to provide evidence to support their claims very little has been forthcoming. When I check for myself - I then discover that claims that someone is 'wiping out the minkes' or whatever are completely unfounded. I'm sorry but I think that spouting a lot of unsustantiated stuff in order to attack someone else is plain wrong - and trying to pretend that it has some real factual basis to justify the attacks is even worse. Whales are sea mammals. We eat several land mammals some of whom have a provably high intelligence. Even if they didn't I personally think that justifying eating some - but not others - is very morally suspect. It's my opinion and others may disagree but we both have an equal right to express it without being accused of condescension or whatever. This argument should be occuring on the issues - not by racial slurring.
Finally - while I see the Philippines stuff as a red herring here, I would have to say that I was not aware that cyanide or dynamite fishing was legal anywhere in the Philippines. It most certainly isn't in such a marine protected park where the coral picture was taken in Anilao. I would also agree with you that some diver skills from this area - both Japan and Korea - leave a lot to be desired. That is not to say that they are all bad however, and is actually a rather different topic for discussion.

 

[Frank Hayes]

Lets Try and come to some common Ground. Cheese whiz in a Can. God help me,But that stuff is great. Is it available around the world like Spam.........

 

[berty]

Ask the Japanese here. Even they will tell you. It is not an attack on their culture.

There's a slight difference between the Japanese who are killing whales and those Japanese you bump into at the supermarket. Those folks are called Americans.