Whaling new thread...

[Mr.X]

New thread about whaling pro's & con's.

I don't support whaling. My avatar indicates that position. Some believe it's OK to hunt whales, others feel that it's a matter of sustainability and letting one person/nation do as they feel. Overall, it's a complicated issue. Recent events involving a teen TV star & her surfing cohorts, as well as Japan's mission to hunt Humpback & Fin whales in the Antarctic sanctuary have reinvigorated, reignited discussions here on SB. Historically, these threads are contentious & often subject to thread closure(s). That being said…

I will answer some questions from a previous dolphin thread in addition to posing new ones.

1. Yes. There is a pro-whaling advocate from a previous thread. Not on the dolphin thread.
2. Values, POV, sustainability seem gray...especially in light of the fact that whales are a world-wide resource. I feel I have a say when someone depletes or mismanages a global resource.
3. I don't much care much for hunting, but understand the need for intelligent management.
4. I don’t consider humans better, or superior to critters. We share a planet and they have every right to exist as do we.


New Questions:

Has anyone here (who has voiced a loud opinion) actually had a first-hand encounter with a cetacean outside of an amusement park, or Oceanarium? No one has answered that question to my best recollection.

What good are you doing? Blowing off opinion here on SB might be entertaining, but in the long run probably doe little to affect opinion, or initiate positive change. That being said I will promote a new site I saw which is KIVA. org. It's a great place to help others. Whales are not the only ones needing our assistance.

X

 

[vladimir]

2. Values, POV, sustainability seem gray...especially in light of the fact that whales are a world-wide resource. I feel I have a say when someone depletes or mismanages a global resource.

I see your point regarding values and POV. Why is sustainability a gray area? To a layman (me), it seems like it would be susceptible to objective scientific research.

 

[Kim]

1. Yes. There is a pro-whaling advocate from a previous thread. Not on the dolphin thread.

Some people eat whale. They probably think that your values are as screwed as you think theirs are.

I don't think anything should be hunted past a sustainable level, but I don't see any real difference between hunting whale or anything else apart from that issue, and edibility. It would be impossible for me to be anti-whaling without being anti any form of hunting or animal killing. To eat any animal and be anti-whaling where it is a sustainable practice is hypocritical as far as I'm concerned.

Arguments about intelligence and "cuteness" don't cut it.

 

[MikeFerrara]

New thread about whaling pro's & con's.

I don't support whaling. My avatar indicates that position. Some believe it's OK to hunt whales, others feel that it's a matter of sustainability and letting one person/nation do as they feel. Overall, it's a complicated issue. Recent events involving a teen TV star & her surfing cohorts, as well as Japan's mission to hunt Humpback & Fin whales in the Antarctic sanctuary have reinvigorated, reignited discussions here on SB. Historically, these threads are contentious & often subject to thread closure(s). That being said…

I will answer some questions from a previous dolphin thread in addition to posing new ones.

1. Yes. There is a pro-whaling advocate from a previous thread. Not on the dolphin thread.
2. Values, POV, sustainability seem gray...especially in light of the fact that whales are a world-wide resource. I feel I have a say when someone depletes or mismanages a global resource.

I would agree that the state of global resources should be of concern to everyone but the "say" that each of us has is limited by quite a few factors. There are many "global resources" but would a south American country be willing to consider a rain forest a global resource when they feel it decessary to harvest the trees for profit and make room for agriculture and industry? The terms "global" and "mismanage" seem to be moving targets.

3. I don't much care much for hunting, but understand the need for intelligent management.

I started going hunting with my father as soon as I was big enough to negotiate the terrain. As a very young child, I had a squirrel tail instead of a teddy bear. Some of the the fondest memories of my chilhood are of hunting and fishing with my father, uncle, cousins and grandfather. In turn, I made it a point to hunt and fish with my own children.

4. I don’t consider humans better, or superior to critters. We share a planet and they have every right to exist as do we.

I guess we can define "rights" by law or morality/values? In the US, I think it's fair to say that our law does not grant the right to exist to the average individual "critter"...ie "civil rights" do not apply. Within certain well defined limits I have a legal right to hunt and in most (all?) states, to interfere is a crime.

As far as morality, I believe that we a responsible for being good stewards of our resources. IMO, that would permit use but not over-use or abuse. I don't know if I would say that I consider humans "better" but certainly different with a different role in the scheem of things.

New Questions:

Has anyone here (who has voiced a loud opinion) actually had a first-hand encounter with a cetacean outside of an amusement park, or Oceanarium? No one has answered that question to my best recollection.

Dolphins but not whales. I don't go to amusement parks or oceanariums.

What good are you doing?

How are we defining "good"? Based on my recent reading on this issue (prompted by these threads) I think some would consider what "Sea Shepherd" does as "good" while I consider it international terrorism. Likewise I would consider any attempt at forceful interference with any person engaged in a legal act as assault, unlawful restraint...or take your pick of legal terms used in various jurisdictions.

Blowing off opinion here on SB might be entertaining, but in the long run probably doe little to affect opinion, or initiate positive change.

I'm not sure I agree. An honest exchange of ideas probably does a lot more to sell your point of view than actreeses on surf boards crying as they attempt to force their values on others as they attempt to go to work.

Further, if you examine the many threads here on the board, I think you'll find that it has made a significant difference in many areas. This is especially true in regards to diving and dive instruction. Lots of learning takes place here and as they say "knowledge is power".

That being said I will promote a new site I saw which is KIVA. org. It's a great place to help others. Whales are not the only ones needing our assistance.

X

I'll have a look.

 

[amitsi]

Some people eat whale. They probably think that your values are as screwed as you think theirs are.

I don't think anything should be hunted past a sustainable level, but I don't see any real difference between hunting whale or anything else apart from that issue, and edibility. It would be impossible for me to be anti-whaling without being anti any form of hunting or animal killing. To eat any animal and be anti-whaling where it is a sustainable practice is hypocritical as far as I'm concerned.

Arguments about intelligence and "cuteness" don't cut it.

..firstly they lie about it calling it scientific whaling...! ...some people also eat tigers guess this guy will also justify it by calling it a cultural thing ...pisses me off!!!

 

[Mr.X]

I thank everyone for their responses.

I'll answer a few questions. The sustainability issue is gray for me because cetaceans are not truly localized. They’re not clumped in one country, as are terrestrial resources. The whale #'s game has been manipulated in the past to argue one point or another. At best the #'s are very crude estimates with huge spreads from the median. Naturally, tracking large numbers of whales in a vast ocean is close to impossible.

Kim, you're not getting my point. Your erudite POV is getting in the way. You've yet to state whether you've been lucky enough to have that type of special encounter with a whale – small, or large. It does change how one feels. My opinion is that people are entitled to eat what they want short of extinction, humane treatment during harvest, or killing themselves (eating tainted food). I always speak up when someone orders Orange Roughy, Toothfish or when some diver impales a Monkfish with their knife for the hell of it. Additionally, we’re all hypocrites at one time or another. I worked in the aquarium biz. till they fired my _ss. I guess the aquarium "un-hypocriticized" me!

I feel the villagers are butchering sentient animals. The various videos (time and again) show dolphins in excruciating pain and obvious fear. It’s very hard to believe that these folks are treating the dolphins with any degree of respect, as would a hunter taught to respect nature and the necessity of making the kill as painless as possible. As a note - the Greeks considered killing a dolphin the equivalent of slaughtering a human. Obviously, the Taijii fishermen do not value the dolphins in the same way. Their thuggish behaviors towards people & animals seems to indicate that. I wonder what the alcoholism rate is in that town? I bet it ain't good!

In short, a mature culture treats people and animals with degrees of respect. The harvesting of endangered species, or serving tainted meat obtained in a brutal roundup makes very little sense. In fact, it's repugnant.

Mike - You’ve brought up Sea Shepherds before. My avatar represents Paul Watson when he was with Greenpeace. I have mixed feelings about some of the tactics the Shepherds use. Thanks for checking out Kiva. Micro financing is a terrific way to give folks who need a small hand, a big leg-up.

X

 

[deeper thoughts]

..firstly they lie about it calling it scientific whaling...! ...some people also eat tigers guess this guy will also justify it by calling it a cultural thing ...pisses me off!!!

As I said before some say save the carbon but its ok to kill the whales or dolphins

 

[Tigerman]

What beats me when it comes to whale/dolphin/seal hunting discussions is the fact that "you can see them have pain" comes up every time. Do you think the meat on your plate didnt have feelings when you use an argument like that?

As long as whats hunted is not endangered, I see no way you can support hunting one animal and not the next.

Yes, misshaps DO happen, resulting in unneccesart pain for the prey, regardless of wether its whaling, deer hunting or Dick Cheny shooting birds.

Ive seen wounded animals up close and personal, and I can assure you that its rather obvious that wounded animals feel pain, its not like thats reserved for the ones you choose to "find cute" or maybe even chose not to see in any form but on your dinner plate.

Unfortunately I have not seen cetaceans in the wild, only in the zoo. However I HAVE encounter whalesharks. If they wherent threatened I still wouldnt have a problem with them being hunted, why would I? Because theire cute, amazing animals? Well, so's Bambi and I have absolutely NO problem shooting, chopping up and making dinner from deer either. YUMMY!

 

[Kim]

Kim, you're not getting my point. Your erudite POV is getting in the way.

I get your point perfectly, but you don't seem to want mine to even exist. However, while people continue to make thread after thread on this topic I will continue to make sure that there is some balance, whether you like it or not. Basically you are simply using this board to further a eco-political agenda in any way you can. Once again dragging the dolphin issue into the whaling issue is a perfect example. As you very well know they aren't related at all, but mixing them up, with the images etc, works well right?

No, I haven't been in the water with a whale, or a dolphin - but so what? As you seem to be portraying me as a "pro-whaler" it's obvious to me you have never actually understood my POV at all. I don't support whaling at all, I don't eat it or buy it in any way that will help the practice to stay economically viable. On the other hand I'm not so full of myself that I think I have a right to tell others what they should eat, or try to paint them as uncaring savages because they make different choices to me. It's THAT that I am so against - that judgmental arrogance when dealing with something different to oneself.

I also find your claim that you don't care what people eat rather absurd. You DO care what people eat, you don't want them to eat whale, no matter how many there are, or how they are killed. Let's not pretend otherwise. I already stated quite unequivocally that nothing should be hunted past sustainable levels IMO. That's your stated position too in this thread. What that also means though is that it's logical that to hunt something within those limits should therefore be OK. Somehow I don't think you really agree with that either though.

I'm sorry if that POV "gets in your way".

 

[Kim]

As I said before some say save the carbon but its ok to kill the whales or dolphins

If you research it a bit I think you'll find that the greatest threat to whale populations today is climate change and changing sea temperatures - not hunting.