Whale Shark on the 4th in Panama City

[Hetland]

Pat, you do not have to explain yourself to anybody. They are not worthy.

You're right. If Pat wasn't the one riding the shark, then there's no need for him to be defensive.

I don't know what the **** "They are not worthy" is supposed to mean though. Are you suggesting that the folks who have expressed disappointment in seeing a whale shark ridden by a diver are somehow wrong in their thinking? What makes you worthy to make such a statement?


"Riding" a wild animal is harassment. If a diver did that to a marine mammal or a sea turtle they would be subject to a fine of up to $50,000, imprisonment up to one year, and Uncle Sam would have a new boat to ski behind on the 4th. Just because a whale shark isn't protected under the law doesn't mean it's not being "harassed".

 

[dlwalke]

I have not heard of any evidence that that would be considered harassment. There are threats to whale sharks to be sure (hunting and maybe the occasional boat strike), but touching them on the fin is not obviously one of them. As indicated in an earlier post, they can easily outpace a diver. I doubt that they showed much, if any, reaction to being touched but they certainly could if they wanted to. From what I have heard (from someone who studies Gulf Whale Sharks), they have pretty tiny brains (for their feeding habits, they don't have to do a whole lot of thinking) and I'd be real surprised to find out that they have an aversive "emotional" reaction to being touched (as perhaps a marine mammal "might"). There is no biological risk or risk of physical injury that I can think of (except maybe to the diver if s/he were to be whacked by a caudal fin...although I have never heard of that). They are not residents, so any touching would be an extraordinarily rare event in the life of any given whale shark (unlike a reef dwelling turtle where chronic touching might lead it to...something thats not good that I can't think of right now). Other than unwarranted anthropomorphizing, I just don't see any rationale for calling this harassment.

 

[Hetland]

I would think dragging an extra 200lbs of meat and metal through water would be stressful, especially to a smaller shark like the one pictured. It's not like the diver is streamlined either. I've got nothing against petting a passing critter, spearfishing for food, or mutual contact initiated by a critter, but riding is harassment in my book, and would certainly qualify as harassment under the endangered species act or marine mammal protection act.

If you don't believe me, start dragging an extra 20 pounds of lead in a paint bucket behind you when you swim. Then come back and tell us how much you enjoyed the experience.

 

[PatMyGreen]

You said that much better than I could have, my thanks! I was "defensive" simply because the tone of the thread completely caught me off guard. I kinda figured that in general everyone would have been taken aback that divers were in the right place at the right time to even get in the water and take a picture of these amazing fish in this part of the northern gulf.

The idea that we were harassing it by making contact was so far from what happened as to be laughable. If this 25-30' whale shark was just half the mass of full size 20 ton version, then 200#s of diver is 1/100th of its total mass. My thinking is it would be akin to having a parrot on your shoulder with no claws or beak that you wanted to dislodge. This is a massive contrast to a turtle or dolphin (which frankly I would assume is dangerous to the diver if they didn't want you there). Turtles are carnivores and besides jelly fish those beaks and take hands easy enough.

Had the shark displayed any behavior indicating it was anything other than indifferent to the attention we were giving it, I assure you everyone would have desisted immediately. And yes that is me in the cargo shorts and belt by the shark waving at the camera. I was swimming with it the whole time as is Tommy in the other picture where he is actually "riding" it, you can clearly see he is mid kick cycle. So also not exactly dragging "unstreamlined" lead.

At no point did it pick up speed turn away from us or do anything except circle until we all swam away from it. Whe divers reentered the water it approached them again.

 

[Zieg]

I would think dragging an extra 200lbs of meat and metal through water would be stressful, especially to a smaller shark like the one pictured. It's not like the diver is streamlined either. I've got nothing against petting a passing critter, spearfishing for food, or mutual contact initiated by a critter, but riding is harassment in my book, and would certainly qualify as harassment under the endangered species act or marine mammal protection act.

If you don't believe me, start dragging an extra 20 pounds of lead in a paint bucket behind you when you swim. Then come back and tell us how much you enjoyed the experience.

“They are not worthy.” Thought that would have been pretty simple, oops, sorry, my bad. Because YOU don’t have the right to tell me or Pat or ANYONE for that matter what we may or may not touch. Please reread your own post. A Whale Shark is not a mammal and is not on the endangered species list, so your comments about $50,000, imprisonment, and Uncle Sam having a new boat is just a bunch of crappola. Please read Pat’s last post again. Pat was in no way harassing that shark.

 

[Hetland]

If a diver did that to a marine mammal or a sea turtle

Apparently you missed reading comprehension when you went back for your g.e.d. I was simply defining "harassment" by using the law that governs "harassment" in similar circumstances. I also was not, despite your accusation, telling anyone what they could or could not do. I was simply agreeing with others that it was in fact harassment to "ride" a wild animal, and wondering who you were to to think that you could declare Pat as some deity immune to all criticism from others.

What Pat should really worry about is what will happen when the real treehuggers and enviros on scubaboard stumble on this thread. Personally I'd still dive on the man's boat (assuming he would have me), but those enviros are not so forgiving in their attitudes or with their wallets. And then there's the thing about a charter captain leaving his vessel unattended at sea.

“They are not worthy.” Thought that would have been pretty simple, oops, sorry, my bad. Because YOU don’t have the right to tell me or Pat or ANYONE for that matter what we may or may not touch. Please reread your own post. A Whale Shark is not a mammal and is not on the endangered species list, so your comments about $50,000, imprisonment, and Uncle Sam having a new boat is just a bunch of crappola. Please read Pat’s last post again. Pat was in no way harassing that shark.

So we had just another typical Saturday charter and after we dove the USS Strength I motored over to Span 12 and sent my DM in to tie in. About 15 seconds later I noticed the sheer profusion of life in the clear flat water water, plainly visible down to the span itself.... which from the surface is pretty good. In fact I was just about to comment to the others how great the vis looked when I noticed the spots...... Why were there spots in the water..... OH MY GOD!!!! "Whale Shark! Expletive Whale Shark, No expleitive there is a whale shark!!!!"

At this point people are diving off the bow with masks only and wetsuits half on, when the DM (Tommy) gives the tugs to signal we are made fast to the span I also grab a spare set of gear and hit the water. Tommy was immersed in the bait cloud and had no idea why there was noone else on the boat when he surfaced to give his conditions report/ predive brief.

Video on YouTube

Also there were several large cobia swimming with it...
Best of all I have proof!

Yep, just another Saturday at Panama City Dive Charters

 

[Zieg]

...but riding is harassment in my book...

Apparently you missed reading comprehension when you went back for your g.e.d. I was simply defining "harassment" by using the law that governs "harassment" in similar circumstances.

"Riding is harassment in my book" sounds alittle more than just a definition. But what do I know, all I got is one of them thar g.e.d's. It sure came across as telling someone what you think they can or cannot do. But weren't you actually questioning my statement that "They are not worthy." The people I refering to being "not worthy" are simply not of the merit, have not earned the right, to be passing judgement on Pat. I know, I know, I know, now we will get into a bit about "earning the right". Well, when they start making a living on the ocean, then they have earned the right.

I also was not, despite your accusation, telling anyone what they could or could not do. I was simply agreeing with others that it was in fact harassment to "ride" a wild animal, and wondering who you were to to think that you could declare Pat as some deity immune to all criticism from others. .

I don't believe that any of those enviros matter to Pat. He has a great reputation here for spearfishing. He won't miss the enviros' wallets a bit.

 

[PatMyGreen]

Vessel was made fast to the bottom and perfectly legal by the CFRs governing "t" boats. I may also have been slightly exagerating by saying "noone" was on the boat. Its a whale of a fish story. Since the news just called it a 30-40' shark I feel my liberties with the facts for the purposes of telling a story aren't that far off base.

I suspect we don't have the real "enviros" here in PCB coming to visit. Funny I always thought I was an enviro. I eat locally grown organic food whenever possible, avoid wal mart at all costs, recycle without curbside pickup, avoid commercially caught fish harvested by insdiscriminate gear types, use flourescent bulbs, invest in solar energy..... In fact the least enviro friendly thing Ido is run a dive boat but I've been working on getting biodiesel for the boat.

I get it that touching a wild animal isn't project AWARE...... but we did what we did, I do not feel it was inappropriate and I have told all in an internet forum. We have also reported the sighting to Southern Miss and talked to the local NMFS biologists. The first bit of information I have been able to find from a reputable source about touching whale sharks concluded that interactions with divers did not lead to avoidance behavior.


Florida Museum of Natural History Ichthyology Department: Whale Shark
In addition, there have been calls from conservation-minded divers worldwide to refrain from riding, chasing, or in any way harassing any large marine animals, including whale sharks. Recently, some observations made on the Ningaloo Reef's whale sharks provided the information that regular diving is a normal behavior of these sharks and not an avoidance reaction during contact with humans.

None of the others I have talked to with BS, MS and PhDs have indicated that the shark would have been harmed by this encounter or that they wouldn't have done the same thing. Whereas I can easily see how whale sharks being mobbed in a mating ground by photo happy tourists all day every day could cause serious behavioral deviations..... this was harmless, once in a lifetime and I'm pretty sure we'd all do it again.


At this point i'm walking away from this thread, you guys have fun attacking each other if you so choose. I appreciate the good words and respectfully disagree with the criticism.

 

[SandyRobinson]

sweet, what a nice dive!

 

[Hetland]

Deleting my response to Zieg after reading Pat's response (#18). Any further discussion on the matter would involve Pat, and if he's out, I will not go on posting. I can disagree with someone and still respect their views. I won't post "behind Pat's back" and rely on some third party to have his back. This is my last post in this thread.