Weekful of OOA in Coz.

[DandyDon]

If my bud of the day doesn't understand me when I signal air pressure info exchange, I grab his spg and look, repeat as needed - and I try to stay observant of both. No need in explaining my screw ups. You can learn from your own ok I think.

 

[SoccerJeni]

Gas management in most OW classes consists of "watch your SPG" and "end the dive with 500 psi". That is not gas management ... it's a couple of rules of thumb that are only helpful if you know what you're watching for. AFAIK, not a single mainstream agency takes gas consumption measurements at the OW level, or trains their divers how to use those measurements to determine a rock bottom pressure for a given depth. Unless you know what psi you need to begin your ascent, watching your gauge doesn't really give you enough information to be useful.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)

You made so many great points in your post, but I particularly wanted to highlight this part because I completely agree with it. That's one reason why I've enjoyed this site so much because I can learn a lot of things that I was never taught. Thank you for being a good online mentor

 

[midwayman]

WHERE do divers get the idea that it is DM responsibility to watch their air? Can we find that source and censure it...??

My best suggestions for y'all is Key Largo and stick to the mother hen boats or learn diving safety & protocols.

No thanks. How do you suggest I force people to communicate their gas to me? Am I to swim up and grab their SPG from them? Doesn't that just change the DM being nanny to me being nanny? I've never been OOA or even close.


So things I've learned-
I need to be a better buddy and assume anyone I dive with is a halfwit until proven otherwise.
Never trust the DM.
Stick to the plan. Even if the DM tries to change it.

 

[dhaas]

midwayman,

It's no big deal to expect your buddy to show you their SPG or communicate remaining PSI in whatever method you decided on. (One or TWO fingers on forearm, more INTERNATIONAL USE and the remaining hundreds by fingers) or flashing in increments of 500 PSI or whatever.

I routinely glance at dive buddy's gauges sometimes even behind them and they didn't even know it.

Mainly to avoid situations like this: I've had people at 90' with 700 PSI and think everything's fine

One friend who is an active instructor has cut short his dives to make sure someone makes it up and maybe does a safety stop along the way.

That's another hated topic as I see people worry about a 3 min. / 15' safety stop for a no-deco dive when they're ABOUT TO RUN OF AIR !!!!!!! How silly what is taught today....

Then again there's more discussion on O2 toxicity and safety stops than better buoyancy, decent swimming skills and more.

As far as all the gas planning talk, I guarantee less than 5% on any sport diving boat do any calculations before hopping in behind the DM.

All divers SHOULD know gas will go faster at 90' versus 40' and to watch their gauges, stay with their buddy and group (such as in Cozumel drift diving) have their own Safety Sausage, whistle and maybe even signal mirror and small light, etc.

Any more complexity is simply too much task loading for newbies plus many who call themselves "experienced".

I've likely commented too much already

But as an old, NOT BOLD diver I am saddened by seeing people NOT enjoy what can be a fun and safe sport.

I don't have all the answers either.......

YMMV

dhaas

 

[midwayman]

It sounds like a lot of these people had no idea how fast they could go through their air at those depths, and only realized it when they were down there. You can monitor your air all you want, but if you go to 120 feet without at least a basic understanding of how fast you will use up your air ... or how much you will need to surface from that depth ... watching your gauge won't keep you out of trouble. You need more information than you have available to make a reasonable decision.

Well, we didn't *want* to goto 120. I was supposed to be a ~90fsw dive from what I understood.

These people are counting on a DM to lead them up ... if the DM doesn't respond promptly, I'd bet you none of this group had the skills to conduct a mid-water ascent in current with anything close to control. Bet ya none of them had an SMB ... except the DM ... or knew how to use one even if they had it.

I'm guess at least 3 of us for sure could do a no-reference ascent. I've done it fine many times. I don't know if anyone had a SMB. I didn't have one on this dive. After this experience I'll be carrying it again.

Did you know beforehand that he had overruled your request, and was taking you to a place you had already told him you were uncomfortable with? If so, then you SHOULD have simply said "no thanks" and stayed on the boat.

Nope. I had no idea we weren't at the cathedral until he started leading us down the devil's throat. We should have aborted then.

Did your training include gas management? If not, then you were not qualified to do this dive. And if it did, you should have known better than try it on an AL80 ... it simply doesn't give you adequate reserves ... particularly when diving with someone fairly new, who will most likely have a pretty high consumption rate.

Official training I think they only covered that you use twice as much air at 10m, 3x at 20m,etc. I've read more about it here and on the web on my own. Again, this dive was off plan. Shouldn't have happened, should have been aborted when we realized what was going on.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

No thanks. How do you suggest I force people to communicate their gas to me? Am I to swim up and grab their SPG from them? Doesn't that just change the DM being nanny to me being nanny? I've never been OOA or even close.


So things I've learned-
I need to be a better buddy and assume anyone I dive with is a halfwit until proven otherwise.
Never trust the DM.
Stick to the plan. Even if the DM tries to change it.

Being a better buddy doesn't need to involve nannyism ... it just needs to involve good communication. That starts on the surface. Sometimes I dive with people who don't want to communicate to me what their pressure is ... but I'm a natural-born mother hen and so I tell them that before we get in the water. If it's going to be an issue, best to know before the dive begins so you can both pair up with someone who's going to be more compatible with your comfort zone. Everyone's got their own way of doing things. That doesn't make them wrong ... or a halfwit ... just that they're comfortable diving that way. So find a buddy who's compatible.

Trusting a DM doesn't mean depending on them to make your decisions for you ... that's your job. If you give someone a thumb, that's not a query ... it's a command. There's only one acceptable response, and that's to begin the ascent as soon as is practicably possible. If the DM doesn't respond in that manner, give two thumbs ... emphatically. If they still don't respond, wave "bye-bye" and begin your ascent. YOU know why you're ascending, and if there wasn't a good reason you wouldn't have given the thumb in the first place. That said ... if I ever ran into a DM who ignored a thumb, then no ... I wouldn't trust them again ... because they just violated a command signal, and anyone past OW training should know better.

Stick to the plan ... unless you understand the reasons why it's being changed. It's not uncommon to change a dive plan ... but it should involve communication and agreement by all divers involved. If the DM is changing the dive plan, find a way to ask why. Dive slates or wet notes can come in handy for communications that can't be conveyed by hand signals. Failing that, the DM should either have discussed contingencies prior to the dive, or should stick to the plan. In other words, there's some room for flexibility here ... but it shouldn't be based simply on an assumption that the DM knows best. The adage "plan your dive and dive your plan" should apply unless everyone involved in the dive agrees to the change. Doing otherwise just sets up exactly the situations you described in the first post.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[boulderjohn]

No thanks. How do you suggest I force people to communicate their gas to me? Am I to swim up and grab their SPG from them? Doesn't that just change the DM being nanny to me being nanny? I've never been OOA or even close.

In my OW classes, I teach students that being aware of each other's gas situation is an important team function. During pool practice sessions, I have students spend considerable time just free swimming to get the feel of it. During those sessions, they are supposed to be practicing skills. One such skill is to ask for the buddy's gas situation on occasion by pointing the point finger of one hand to the palm of the other and making a circular motion. the buddy is to respond with the current PSI reading as instructed. I also tell them that ideally the buddy will not need to look at the gauge at that point but will instead already know it because it was so recently checked without being asked.

I also agree with Bob that recreational diving does not put adequate emphasis on gas management. Sadly, I also know from asking about it directly that gas management of this sort is considered a technical diving skill. Recreational gas management is believed to consist of watching the gauges and then heading to the surface at an appropriate pressure. I disagree.

 

[billtodive]

No thanks. How do you suggest I force people to communicate their gas to me? Am I to swim up and grab their SPG from them? Doesn't that just change the DM being nanny to me being nanny? I've never been OOA or even close.


I need to be a better buddy and assume anyone I dive with is a halfwit until proven otherwise.
Never trust the DM.
Stick to the plan. Even if the DM tries to change it.[/QUOTE]

I might change "the DM" to "anyone"
I am going to quote you in my sig line along with another quote


Nobody gets smarter underwater, if you had a good plan on the surface...


As to your question, If you are my "buddy" I have the right to look at your SPG anytime I want, and you at mine (Narcosis can do funny things to anyone). I have the right to call the dive anytime I want; so do you. If you don't agree, we don't need to be buddies (underwater).

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Recreational gas management is believed to consist of watching the gauges and then heading to the surface at an appropriate pressure.

... and appropriate pressure would be ???

How would the recreational diver determine it ???

Those are two questions that those who believe such things really need to answer ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[midwayman]

Everyone's got their own way of doing things. That doesn't make them wrong ... or a halfwit ... just that they're comfortable diving that way. So find a buddy who's compatible.

That's not exactly what I meant. That you should always assume the worst about an unknown buddy/diver until they prove otherwise. That's not just my experience here, but numerous posts I read about people diving with unknown divers. AKA take control of the situation unless you trust that person with your life.