We Just Can't Do IT!!!!

[Wookie]

I kind of like NASE's new approach: Competency based. They do log minutes (as opposed to dives), but they have put the onus on the instructor to not advance to OW if they are not competent in the pool. They have a clear definition of trim and buoyancy and will be available to both independent as well as shop instructors.

How is that different from ANY other Agency out there? It is all up to the Instructor with every Agency. Everyone wants to blame the Agency, when it still comes down to the Instructor. If they aren't ready...don't pass them, and give them more training. Minimum Standards are just that....minimums. It's not a cookie cutter for every student.

“Much of what passes for “open water” training isn’t open-water training at all. It’s a repetition of pool training masquerading as open-water dives. The bottom line: It’s only an open-water training dive if you actually go diving. Anything else just creates certified non-divers.”

• Standards between organizations are very similar; after all we are teaching dives to do the same thing at each level – its not rocket science! But the philosophical difference and belief of what the student sees and experiences is what affects the outcome and avoids the ‘teaching to the minimums” argument.
• Many teach and asses skills individually, not integrated in actual diving environments. We have re-designed our courses to integrate the fundamental skills and required our members to assess in a way that help prepare the student for real world diving. We focus on the student’s ability to use the skills together. For example, we do not evaluate individual buoyancy skills but evaluate it throughout the entire dive.
• The outcome we define as a minimum standard is a diver that will upon graduation, dive the way they should in the real world, not repeating training dive scenario with respect to skill application.
• “If the student isn’t ready..don’t pass them” Agreed, I don’t think any reputable instructor would do that and no agency would condone that. But the question is “Has the student gained enough time underwater, using scuba to have developed competency in the core skills? And is the student to the point they can enjoy themselves while diving safely?”

Our goal is to bring a new method of teaching so dive professionals can enjoy their jobs as educators and students get the best experience.

You're all missing the point. It doesn't matter what the agency is, it doesn't matter what the standards are, if the shops, agencies, and customers don't demand excellence out of instructors, instructors will continue to meet minimum requirements. What passes for scuba instruction today is crap compared to even 10 years ago. If a student wants a crap class, they can find one in just about any city in the United States. As long as students walk into a shop and tell the owner they are going on a cruise that leaves Sunday, can I buy all this gear and get certified in the next 2 days, shops will make 2 day wonders.

I watched my wife's IE many years ago. She was evaluated by the PADI regional rep. I watched over half of the candidates "drown" their rescue victims. Not 5 of 25 completed the surface part of the rescue (I could only watch what happened on the surface) in a satisfactory manner to my standards. I was told that 5 failed their fin pivot demonstration, and 15 failed to hover motionlessly for 2 min. All who went to open water for the IE passed the IE. The problem starts at the top with the agencies. If the regional rep doesn't even require a passing grade for a rescue, not a demonstration quality rescue, but a pass to become a dive instructor, what message does that send? That person is still the regional representative, by the way. And he's still an *******.

 

[The Chairman]

You're all missing the point. It doesn't matter what the agency is, it doesn't matter what the standards are, if the shops, agencies, and customers don't demand excellence out of instructors, instructors will continue to meet minimum requirements.

No doubt that the agency has to play a leadership role. If the leadership doesn't demand excellence, then you can't expect anything better from their minions.

However, instructors are asked to teach for peanuts. Peanuts. How can you do a good job if you can't support yourself while doing it? It's my belief that the pressures to do a craptastic job are mostly financial. I worked as a service manager and mechanic most of my adult life. I saw a lot of "stings" with news agencies as well as LEO. The shops more likely to cut corners or commit fraud were the cheap ones. If something is too good to be true: it usually is. Does that excuse it? No way. Does that encourage it? Of course. Working hard and not being able to support yourself is frustrating. Most often, the owners of the shops who were busted simply blamed the employee caught red handed. Denial is not just another river in Egypt. Yet, they can't pay employees what they don't collect. Being too cheap has it's own set of problems.

Like I said earlier, after talking with Eric, I was pretty impressed with his dedication to set that example and to make sure that excellence begins with the NASEHQ. I know that since they have just taken over the agency, they are looking at every course from OW to Instructor. This is a chance for us to have a role in letting them know what we want to see. I like that.

 

[Wookie]

No doubt that the agency has to play a leadership role. If the leadership doesn't demand excellence, then you can't expect anything better from their minions.

However, instructors are asked to teach for peanuts. Peanuts. How can you do a good job if you can't support yourself while doing it? It's my belief that the pressures to do a craptastic job are mostly financial. I worked as a service manager and mechanic most of my adult life. I saw a lot of "stings" with news agencies as well as LEO. The shops more likely to cut corners or commit fraud were the cheap ones. If something is too good to be true: it usually is. Does that excuse it? No way. Does that encourage it? Of course. Working hard and not being able to support yourself is frustrating. Most often, the owners of the shops who were busted simply blamed the employee caught red handed. Denial is not just another river in Egypt. Yet, they can't pay employees what they don't collect. Being too cheap has it's own set of problems.

Like I said earlier, after talking with Eric, I was pretty impressed with his dedication to set that example and to make sure that excellence begins with the NASEHQ. I know that since they have just taken over the agency, they are looking at every course from OW to Instructor. This is a chance for us to have a role in letting them know what we want to see. I like that.

The only way to fix this (in my short sighted little mind) is to get training out of dive shops. What do dive shops do? Sell stuff. When selling stuff interferes with training, training will ALWAYS suffer. That's why I like the BSAC/CMAS model (BSAC more than CMAS). Training takes place in a club setting. The retailers are there to support the club (sell gear at the best price they can), the club supports the retailer by making new divers to shop at the retailer, and one has no effect on the other.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

We have 6 instructors that use the shop facility but none of us work for the shop, we don;t sell gear, the shop does not assign students or tell us how to teach or what agency to teach for. He told the PADI rep to go pound salt because he said we should all be teaching PADI courses. We bring in our own students that he would never see if we had to do that. The owner is not an instructor he is a business man and that is how it should be. Work with shops for pool if they have one, classroom space, and rental gear. That's it. instructors instruct, shop owners sell gear and ne'r the twain should cross!

 

[The Chairman]

I doubt that any singular solution is right for every shop. I do know that ultimately, the consumer has the last say. Shops need to experiment to see what is right for them, and instructors need to do the same.

Jim, do you teach full time now?

 

[DevonDiver]

Forgive me for 'going against the grain' of this discussion... but didn't we start out with a faulty initial premise?

How in the world can you train a person to dive in a one day pool training , group format, 4 hours in the pool and tell them they are prepared, sending them on there way with a referal letter.

Firstly, I wasn't aware that confined water training was limited to 4 hours?

I thought that the duration of confined water skills training was dictated by the student's ability to master the requisite skills.

Secondly, I wasn't aware that we should be telling students that "they were a diver" after completing only the confined water, skill development portion of their training?

I thought that this aspect of training only dealt with the development of individual skills, which formed only one component of the overall diver training programme.

Lastly, I wasn't aware that we had to use a group format?

I thought that we should apply a risk assessment and our professional judgement to determine an optimal class size, based upon a wide variety of factors, the least of which would be the learning progress of individual students.

 

[Wookie]

Forgive me for 'going against the grain' of this discussion... but didn't we start out with a faulty initial premise?



Firstly, I wasn't aware that confined water training was limited to 4 hours?

I thought that the duration of confined water skills training was dictated by the student's ability to master the requisite skills.

Secondly, I wasn't aware that we should be telling students that "they were a diver" after completing only the confined water, skill development portion of their training?

I thought that this aspect of training only dealt with the development of individual skills, which formed only one component of the overall diver training programme.

Lastly, I wasn't aware that we had to use a group format?

I thought that we should apply a risk assessment and our professional judgement to determine an optimal class size, based upon a wide variety of factors, the least of which would be the learning progress of individual students.

You have to understand that Chaz was melting down that day. He found out an instructor in his area was doing that kind of referral. Basically, not preparing a diver for real life and sending them out to a dive operator with a referral letter that was kind of worthless. The referring instructor (who I don't have a clue who he/she is) is making the rounds of the Baltimore area, doing referrals in one day, and PADI doesn't do anything about it because it isn't a standards violation. The student doesn't know that they haven't really been trained, the dive shop loses the ability to properly train the diver, and the receiving facility instructor ends up retraining all over again.

It would actually be a system I could advocate if it worked. A traveling instructor, independent from the dive shop, teaching students. In this case it might not be working. I haven't gotten any of these improperly trained students, because we aren't any kind of proper place to conduct OW training.

 

[WickedGoodOutdoors]

Then learn to Buddy Breath. Little Otter Merit Badge

Hell they dont even teach how to drink a Quart of Beer underwater anymore.