We Just Can't Do IT!!!!

[Dive Right In Scuba]

Can you guys please take the time to list a breakdown of a "Long" open water course. I am intrigued and would like to present the proposal to my bosses to offer an extended course should students wish to choose it. Thus having our usual 4 day OW (1 day theory) (1 pool day) (2 ow days) or have a 9-14 day course students and can pay a little extra to participate in due to additional expenses involved.

What I would do, is extend the days a little, 2 days of class and two days of pool. More than 2 days of openwater is really unnecessary if you get the extra pool time. OW time is really just dive experience anyway, so get them certified and really preach extra dives that day or then take them on fun dives the rest of the day. OR get them into some more dive specialties. We do 3 dives on the first OW day and 1 dive on the second. Then we take them for fun dives the rest of the day or offer students a specialty (still 2 training dives left that second day). The fun dives students are really just getting out and diving more and building experience...these are led by a DM or Instructor or the students can go off on their own if they choose. Most don't as they want us to show them the cool stuff UW, and it gives us another chance to evaluate their skills and talk in the debrief. This way they are doing another 2-3 dives that day outside of OW class...giving about 6-7 OW dives total. Some students do more that day. We always have a cookout, and they really sink their teeth into the dive lifestyle and end up coming out diving more often. We then also give them free equipment rental for a month to go and really enhance their skills and invite them to join us the next dive weekend for more dives and cookout.

You can also package in advanced training into the OW price, so they get more for what they pay for. With good training, most people really don't need 4 days in the pool or OW, so I would provide additional training. I wouldn't be too happy if I had to do all that extra work, and still only came away with an OW card and OW training vs. coming out after that much training with a Deep card, UW nav card, Buoyancy, etc So if you want to extend the class, do some small tweaks and add more into the class.

Most importantly, as an Instructor or DM, you are certifying that student...if you somehow think they have been pushed thru the course too fast, don't certify them and ask them for some more dive time. The agency can set minimums, but your doing the training and make the divers. If you don't think they are "ready" then make them dive more....it's your name on the card

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Here is my typical OW course. 16 hours classroom, 16 hours pool. Classroom schedule is roughly
1. Paperwork, history of diving, equipment, basic water safety
2. Physics and intro to diving physiology
3. Physiology and dive planning
4. Dive Planning and Dive tables intro
5. Dive tables -deco, and diving environment
6. Dive environment -Waves, tides, and currents
7. Diving emergencies and First aid including haz marine life, DCS First aid, Overexpansion injuries, and eval and evac procedures
8. Review and Final Exam

Pool sessions consist of
1. Swim tests-300yd no aids, 15 min tread, 50 ft UW swim- snorkel and skin diving- 4 types of kicks including frog 4 lap snorkel with each kick and surface dive on min of 3 legs. Last exercise is to leave mask and snorkel on pool bottom, swim UW 25 feet and recover and clear M&S before surfacing so snorkel is breathable as head clears the water. This last may carry over to next session if student has difficulty.
2. Intro to Scuba gear- Assemble gear, don and do buddy checks, remove and gear in water. Weight checks with exposure suit only then with scuba unit. Practice breathing on surface w/o mask. Then using proper equalization horizontal descent into 4 ft of water. Buddies make eye contact and then just breathe. Next is work with inflator while horizontal, move so torso is out over next level and mask clear, reg recovery, and loosen weight belt and refasten. Next move to 7 ft level horizontal and repeat but this time remove and replace belt. Final is move so only fin tips are resting on pool step and body is out over next level and repeat basics. Then 20 min free swim. Students wil be asked to demo skills while they are swimming. I demo all skills hovering in midwater.
3. Weight checks, repeat basic skills, move to deep end. BC remove and replace, BC, mask, fins remove and replace. BC, mask, fins, remove and remvoe reg then replace all gear. Buddy breathing stationary,20 min free swim. Studnets may be asked to repeat any skill while swimming.
4. Weight checks- students do their own while I observe. Students permitted to adjust if they desire more or less weight. Repeat basics neutral and in trim. No mask swim, AAS/no mask swim, buddy breathing swim, free flowing reg breathing. Controlled ascents vertical and horizontal from deeep end. Remove replace gear on bottom.
5. Weight checks- students perform and adjust as necessary. Repeat basics. Move to deep end and do doff and don. AAS swim with one student leaving BC in deep end- make a circuit of the pool and retrieve gear that may have had stuff done to it (tank strap undone, harness or straps unclipped or reversed, gauges clipped off on wrong side), 20 min free swim and skills may be required during swim
6. Weight checks- basic skills, bailout student sit on edge of pool with all gear in lap and reg in with air on. Falls forward into pool and dons gear on bottom. Unconscious diver from depth. Single and as buddy team. Assist diver in getting positive at surface and support for two minutes. 20 min free swim
7. Weight checks- basic skills- Panicked diver at surface as single rescuer and as buddy team. Rescue tows while removing gear. Surface unconscious diver, support at surface, remove gear while towing. 20 min free swim
8. Weight checks- basic skills- any skill diver wants to practice more with- review of rescue skills and free swim

Sessions 6,7, and 8 are usually done in heavier exposure protection that the diver will be using in OW checkouts

OW checkout dives are normally 45 min to 1 hour in duration each dive. All OW checkout skills are done during the swims or if stationary in midwater, hovering , and in trim. Also try to do three dives each day with one being a snorkel /skin dive.

 

[mdb]

After 38 years in this business I finally have drawn my line in the sand when it comes to training new divers....... We Just Can't Do It!!!!!

Good on you mate, as our Aussie and Kiwi friends would say. It it nice to see you take a public stand against the current diploma mill that some "training?" agencies now promote.

Folks who have inadequate training are simply, in many cases, poor and unsafe divers. They are a danger to themselves and others. They rarely continue diving.

The certification agency gets its fees for books and cards etc. The stores and instructors who buy into this system are, IMO, looking for the short term dollar and really do not care about training people to dive in open water.

As an old NASDS diver I have always been thankful for the initial training. I've taken many courses since then but would not still be diving if my first course were not as thorough.

 

[The Chairman]

I kind of like NASE's new approach: Competency based. They do log minutes (as opposed to dives), but they have put the onus on the instructor to not advance to OW if they are not competent in the pool. They have a clear definition of trim and buoyancy and will be available to both independent as well as shop instructors.

 

[Dive Right In Scuba]

I kind of like NASE's new approach: Competency based. they have put the onus on the instructor to not advance to OW if they are not competent in the pool.

How is that different from ANY other Agency out there? It is all up to the Instructor with every Agency. Everyone wants to blame the Agency, when it still comes down to the Instructor. If they aren't ready...don't pass them, and give them more training. Minimum Standards are just that....minimums. It's not a cookie cutter for every student.

 

[The Chairman]

How is that different from ANY other Agency out there? It is all up to the Instructor with every Agency. Everyone wants to blame the Agency, when it still comes down to the Instructor. If they aren't ready...don't pass them, and give them more training. Minimum Standards are just that....minimums. It's not a cookie cutter for every student.

If you are looking to assign blame... I pick the shops. The shops determine the going price in the area. It is my experience that the independents base their rates off of the shops in their area. For too long, the shops used classes as a loss leader to generate gear sales. It's the 500 pound gorilla in the room that everyone is trying to ignore. Price fixing is illegal, so it will take some guts for shops to start charging a LOT more for their classes in hopes that the other shops and independents will follow suit. It's not a quick fix, but rather a long term approach.

ALSO, it's my opinion that we allow way too many zero to heroes to be made in search of a quick buck. The agency that addresses this problem will in turn be the one to "fix" the industry. After extensive talks with Scott Evans with NASE, I am pretty impressed with his commitment to make it the very best. I'll be crossing over pretty soon because of his leadership.

 

[Dive Right In Scuba]

If you are looking to assign blame... I pick the shops. The shops determine the going price in the area. It is my experience that the independents base their rates off of the shops in their area. For too long, the shops used classes as a loss leader to generate gear sales. It's the 500 pound gorilla in the room that everyone is trying to ignore. Price fixing is illegal, so it will take some guts for shops to start charging a LOT more for their classes in hopes that the other shops and independents will follow suit. It's not a quick fix, but rather a long term approach.

ALSO, it's my opinion that we allow way too many zero to heroes to be made in search of a quick buck. The agency that addresses this problem will in turn be the one to "fix" the industry. After extensive talks with Scott Evans with NASE, I am pretty impressed with his commitment to make it the very best. I'll be crossing over pretty soon because of his leadership.

I thought the topic was on training...not pricing. But either way...Sure, some shops price different and hope for Gear sales. As someone who promotes the free market, Pete, aren't you trading your beliefs on this one? The store has the right to mark their prices where they see fit.....if they want to take a loss on training, and try and make it up on gear, that is their choice. If it is a bad one, they will either learn quickly or go out of business. In the same token, the independent shouldn't look at the shops to figure their pricing....if they do, they are only doing it because they can't figure out how much the class truly costs them. So they take the easy way out and just copy someones price. Nothing wrong with that either, it is their choice.

I really don't see how any of that is a shops fault. That is a business error that can take place anywhere....and a choice of the owner to do such.

Price fixing? Really??? But what your asking, for prices to go up, and everyone to follow suit, isn't price fixing?? Come on Pete....your really stretching here. I don't know about your area, maybe that is the case, but don't come here acting like it's an epidemic or problem in the Industry. That is complete BS. The truth is more of one person going the lower price route, and nobody else has a reason not to follow, and they have a race to the bottom. Price fixing, is what you want to do.

Your last paragraph, which brings us back on topic, is absolutely FALSE. I know Scott well, he used to be with NAUI, and preaching that hard too....Great guy BTW! If you or your shop is creating Zero to Hero types, that is the sole problem of the Instructor. He puts his name on the cert, he teaches the class, and he decides who continues past each module...nobody else. If they aren't ready, they shouldn't go to the next module. Case closed. And to lay blame anywhere else is a copout for the real issue....BAD INSTRUCTORS. Now that would be a place to start with the agencies. Finding a way to weed out the bad instructors or bring them up to the next level of better training with those of a higher standard. But to attempt to blame other Agencies or Shops for this, is a foolish move. The only one who moves a student forward is the Instructor. If you are turning out Zeros into Heros quickly, it is nobodies fault but your own. No offense Pete, I hold you in high regard, but I completely disagree with you on this. The agencies are only marketing agencies...the Instructors make it happen. Maybe if everyone stopped blaming someone else, and fixed the real problem....the would ALL be the ones to help "FIX" the industry

 

[The Chairman]

I thought the topic was on training...not pricing.

The quality of training is directly linked to pricing. How much time can you afford for a student who pays $200 for a class? How much for $400? How much for $800? I have seen too many burned out and BROKE instructors in this business, not to mention too many shops that go bust as well.

As someone who promotes the free market, Pete, aren't you trading your beliefs on this one?

How so? I certainly have not suggested that we pass any laws to regulate how we do business. The advent of e-tailers such as yourself has revolutionized the diving industry and how the diving consumer spends their money. Gear sales aren't a sure thing for most shops, and the shops that try to sell at MAP or list are at a real disadvantage when competing with e-tailers.

The store has the right to mark their prices where they see fit.....if they want to take a loss on training, and try and make it up on gear, that is their choice.

I fail to see where I indicated otherwise.

If it is a bad one, they will either learn quickly or go out of business. In the same token, the independent shouldn't look at the shops to figure their pricing....if they do, they are only doing it because they can't figure out how much the class truly costs them.

Bingo, yahtzee, We have a winner!

So they take the easy way out and just copy someones price. Nothing wrong with that either, it is their choice.

Albeit a very bad one if they have undervalued their training.

I really don't see how any of that is a shops fault. That is a business error that can take place anywhere....and a choice of the owner to do such.

This is a disconnect for me. How is a "business error" anything BUT the shop's fault? It's not the instructor's, the agency's or the consumer's fault... it's the shop's.

Price fixing? Really???

It's illegal: don't do it!

But what your asking, for prices to go up, and everyone to follow suit, isn't price fixing??

Check that out at your local neighborhood gas pump. Some stations charge a HUGE premium for being simply convenient. Why can't you?

Come on Pete....your really stretching here. I don't know about your area, maybe that is the case, but don't come here acting like it's an epidemic or problem in the Industry. That is complete BS. The truth is more of one person going the lower price route, and nobody else has a reason not to follow, and they have a race to the bottom. Price fixing, is what you want to do.

Again, I am not sure what your point is here. Can you rephrase it?

If you or your shop is creating Zero to Hero types, that is the sole problem of the Instructor.

Yet, we rarely see instructors advertising these types of classes. Who do we see marketing them? Shops. Not agencies, not instructors but shops set the prices. Our industry fluctuates violently in response to the market. Small fluctuations can cause huge problems locally as diving is optional. Paying the rent, utilities and buying groceries are not.

The bottom line, for me, is that we have no one to blame for this other than ourselves. For many years, shops relied on selling gear at much larger margins in order to subsidize training. IOW, training has been discounted for so long, that very few are able to make it work, and as I have pointed out, most instructors I know have no savings and nothing to fall back on if/when they get hurt.

Bottom line #2: Shops need to make more money!!! It's a worn out joke that states that the best way to make a million in the dive industry is to start out with two and stop when you get to a million. If gear margins are dwindling, then they have to make them up with service, fills and training. The easiest of these to increase is training since it is so undervalued. That will take gutsy moves, retraining the consumer as well as making diving far more fun. I know that I am up to the challenge.

Maybe if everyone stopped blaming someone else, and fixed the real problem....the would ALL be the ones to help "FIX" the industry

Do tell. What do you see as the "real" problem?

 

[Dive Right In Scuba]

Quotes? Really?? Sorry, I can't continue a conversation with all those quotes.....I never understood why people do that.....Not even going to try and respond by going thru all that.

I will answer the last one though, as it requires no scrolling....
The real problem....Everyone talks, nobody actually does it. They try to preach to get everyone on board, without actually doing anything themselves. Everyone is a preacher, nobody actually does anything with it. Case in point....what happened to that DEMA is the devil thread? Did anything come from it? Just a lot of talk and wasted time....Everything I talked about, I implemented in my store, which to me, is all that matters. I focus on myself, my store, my staff....I could care less about how anybody else does their business......Stop focusing on others and just grow your own business, your own students, your own divers.

 

[NASEHQ]

How is that different from ANY other Agency out there? It is all up to the Instructor with every Agency. Everyone wants to blame the Agency, when it still comes down to the Instructor. If they aren't ready...don't pass them, and give them more training. Minimum Standards are just that....minimums. It's not a cookie cutter for every student.

“Much of what passes for “open water” training isn’t open-water training at all. It’s a repetition of pool training masquerading as open-water dives. The bottom line: It’s only an open-water training dive if you actually go diving. Anything else just creates certified non-divers.”

• Standards between organizations are very similar; after all we are teaching dives to do the same thing at each level – its not rocket science! But the philosophical difference and belief of what the student sees and experiences is what affects the outcome and avoids the ‘teaching to the minimums” argument.
• Many teach and asses skills individually, not integrated in actual diving environments. We have re-designed our courses to integrate the fundamental skills and required our members to assess in a way that help prepare the student for real world diving. We focus on the student’s ability to use the skills together. For example, we do not evaluate individual buoyancy skills but evaluate it throughout the entire dive.
• The outcome we define as a minimum standard is a diver that will upon graduation, dive the way they should in the real world, not repeating training dive scenario with respect to skill application.
• “If the student isn’t ready..don’t pass them” Agreed, I don’t think any reputable instructor would do that and no agency would condone that. But the question is “Has the student gained enough time underwater, using scuba to have developed competency in the core skills? And is the student to the point they can enjoy themselves while diving safely?”

Our goal is to bring a new method of teaching so dive professionals can enjoy their jobs as educators and students get the best experience.