Watson Murder Case - Discussion

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I am sure Bruce used that description for the shock value to get his point across. From my contact with him on SB and in person he is an awesome guy. He sure made the point more effectivly than I did! People really have no idea what what they are capable of until enough pressure is applied.

It is comforting to believe we would be the heroes risking death fighting evil on the resistance not the people who turn in their neighbors in War situations but until you have faced it .. you just don't know... I for one will not judge Gabe because he didn't behave in the ideal way in a very horrific set of circumstances. Some people just do not have the strength of will, mind or character to be heroes.
 
Bruce since you are here... do you think Watson's lawyers would have advised him not to make any public or private statements regarding the case prior to trial?
 
K girl

I don't remember reading anything about how the Watsons treated the Thomas family at the funeral. Elaborate, please.
But, I think I remember reading that Mr. Thomas had doubts about Watsons story from the very beginning.

Watson's behavior and treatment of Tina's family before the funeral made Mr. Thomas "uneasy" but his initial reaction was that it was just a terrible accident. The treatement included the fact that Watson's mother was already on a plane headed for Australia when they only learned of Tina's death a full day after she died. Tina's family was unable to talk to Watson for quite some time about her death and when they did, it was a very strange phone call. Then the funeral director told Tina's family if they made any accusations, they would escorted out of the funeral. They had no knowledge of the status of the police investigation at that point and were surprised at the treatment at the funeral.

This article mentions the treatment at the funeral:

Source: Tina Watson: the bride who drowned at the Barrier Reef - Times Online

Sorry - it was one month (4 weeks, not 4 months) after Tina's death that Mr. Thomas spoke with the other divers on the Spoilsport that raised his suspicions about Watson. In the NBC news story, Mr. Thomas said that in his conversation with Australian police, he thought it was an accident, but something the detective said raised his concerns, but the detective wouldn't tell him anything.

"[Tommy] told an officer there named Glenn the brief details of Tina’s drowning that he'd learned from his son-in-law.

Tommy Thomas: And I asked Glenn if that sounded like what he was told. And instead of just telling me, “Yeah, it was a horrible accident.” He said, “Well, that's one thing that we'll look at."

Dennis Murphy: What did that tell you?

Tommy Thomas: It was kind of hard to catch it, but it was like these guys are concerned about something, you know? And I just wish they'd tell me. And I couldn't pin him down to anything. He wouldn't really tell me anything at that stage..

But there were some people who wanted to talk to Tommy in just the worst way, four people he didn't know, the veteran divers, the two American couples aboard the Spoilsport..

But when they finally did speak Ken, the vacationing diver, and Tommy, the father of the drowned woman, agreed to meet at the end of November 2003, about a month after Tina's death. It was a planned cup of coffee and a brief chat ended up lasting four hours."

Mystery in the deep blue sea - Dateline NBC - Crime reports - msnbc.com
 
You're right. I don't know I'd go that far. But, I would certainly do my best to prevent the family from being able to visit the grave site. Imagine, if you will, how a reasonable person would feel if his new bride died during a horrible accident while scuba diving, and then rather than receiving support from her family, her family accused him of murder and sought to have him prosecuted. Now, add to that that her family did this because it wanted the proceeds of the insurance money.

Bruce - read the sequence of events and the links in my post above. Watson started treating Tina's family like crap before they even knew what happened. He did receive their initial support, but he kept essentially slapping them in the face over and over again. Now you are accusing Tina's family of only wanting the insurance money. I honestly cannot blame Tina's family for feeling what they felt. Watson's mother is practically in Australia before they even learn of their daughter's death a day later after she died. Watson avoids speaking to them. The Australian police raise your concerns but they don't tell you anything. Then you are told not to make any accusations at your daughter's funeral or you will be escorted out when you had no intention of doing any such thing. You are skipping a lot of things that happened here. How would you feel if it were your daughter and someone treated you like that?

I would never consider going as far as you have on Thomas family behalf. You were talking about defiling the body of someone you supposedly love in the most disgusting manner you could think of for revenge. No reasonable person would do what you suggested (as you suggest). You went too far and I lost some respect for you because of it and personally, I am quite disgusted. I can't believe anyone would support such a statement. There is no value in such a "shock" statement. I would never cross a line like that. Shame - shame.

So - it's not OK to accuse Australia of not wanting to look bad or spend money on the case. Oh man, I'm horrible, but ItsBruce's disgusting statement of what he think any reasonable man in Watson's situation would do - was OK. God - what is this coming to? All I've ever advocated for was a trial - and not the death penalty. There has not been a trial and there should have been. The judge who took the plea in Australia did not get all the evidence from the DPP.

Consider this: http://netk.net.au/Prosecutions/Prosecutions23.asp

and this:

"Plea-bargaining and guilty pleas – Plea-bargaining may also promote inequality in criminal law. For example, in a recent sexual assault case involving the gang rape of two sixteen-year old girls, the Department of Public Prosecutions (DPP) entered into a plea bargain with the accused. In return for guilty pleas, the DPP agreed not to mention that a knife had been used in the attack. This was done without the knowledge of the victims. Many people, including members of the Government, questioned whether this was a fair and just outcome for the victims and for society."

Source: http://stage6.pbworks.com/f/Effectiveness+of+Criminal+Law.pdf
 
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Bruce since you are here... do you think Watson's lawyers would have advised him not to make any public or private statements regarding the case prior to trial?

I am 99% confident that Watson's lawyers have advised him not to make any statements. There is nothing that he could possibly say that would help himself. And, anything could be twisted to hurt. Anything he said that might be deemed as exculpatory would be labeled a lie and ignored. And, it would not be admissible. Anything that might be damning or that might be twisted and interpreted as damning would be admissible against him.

A perfect example of the foregoing comes from the movie "My Cousin Vinny." There is a scene in which the sheriff is interrogating the suspect. The suspect thinks he and his friend were arrested for stealing a can of tuna fish and had no idea there had even been a killing. So, he admits it and says something like "It just happened." He was referring to putting the can of tuna fish into his pocket, not to anything else. But, the sheriff interpreted it as an admission to having shot the store clerk. Shortly after that, the suspect learns that the clerk was killed. He exclaims "I killed the clerk?" and the clear import of the way he exclaims it is "Do you think I killed the clerk." However, in the subsequent trial, the testimony is that the suspect, now defendant, said the words "I killed the clerk."

So, Watson might get some psychological relief by talking, but the potential harm to his case so outweighs that relief, that I cannot imagine his lawyer letting him say a single word.
 
Bruce - read the sequence of events and the links in my post above. Watson started treating Tina's family like crap before they even knew what happened. He did receive their initial support, but he kept essentially slapping them in the face over and over again. Now you are accusing Tina's family of only wanting the insurance money. I honestly cannot blame Tina's family for feeling what they felt. Watson's mother is practically in Australia before they even learn of their daughter's death a day later after she died. Watson avoids speaking to them. The Australian police raise your concerns but they don't tell you anything. Then you are told not to make any accusations at your daughter's funeral or you will be escorted out when you had no intention of doing any such thing. You are skipping a lot of things that happened here. How would you feel if it were your daughter and someone treated you like that?

I would never consider going as far as you have on Thomas family behalf. You were talking about defiling the body of someone you supposedly love in the most disgusting manner you could think of for revenge. No reasonable person would do what you suggested (as you suggest). You went too far and I lost some respect for you because of it and personally, I am quite disgusted. I can't believe anyone would support such a statement. There is no value in such a "shock" statement. I would never cross a line like that. Shame - shame.

So - it's not OK to accuse Australia of not wanting to look bad or spend money on the case. Oh man, I'm horrible, but ItsBruce's disgusting statement of what he think any reasonable man in Watson's situation would do - was OK. God - what is this coming to? All I've ever advocated for was a trial - and not the death penalty. There has not been a trial and there should have been. The judge who took the plea in Australia did not get all the evidence from the DPP.

Consider this: Prosecution Reports: Plea bargaining debate continues in NSW - 10 January 2008

and this:

"Plea-bargaining and guilty pleas – Plea-bargaining may also promote inequality in criminal law. For example, in a recent sexual assault case involving the gang rape of two sixteen-year old girls, the Department of Public Prosecutions (DPP) entered into a plea bargain with the accused. In return for guilty pleas, the DPP agreed not to mention that a knife had been used in the attack. This was done without the knowledge of the victims. Many people, including members of the Government, questioned whether this was a fair and just outcome for the victims and for society."

Source: http://stage6.pbworks.com/f/Effectiveness+of+Criminal+Law.pdf

I am not accusing Tina's family of only wanting the insurance money. I am offended and outraged you would even suggest that I was accusing the family of that. I think I was quite clear that that could have been part of Watson's mindset as far as his conduct towards Tina's family.

I spent more than 2 hours working on an analysis of other parts of your post, but I was not happy with the way I was expressing myself. Perhaps it is because I am so angry about your statement about me accusing Tina's family of only wanting the insurance money. In any event, I may respond to the rest of your post and/or provide further analysis later.
 
Watson's behavior and treatment of Tina's family before the funeral made Mr. Thomas "uneasy" but his initial reaction was that it was just a terrible accident. The treatement included the fact that Watson's mother was already on a plane headed for Australia when they only learned of Tina's death a full day after she died.
People react differently to the stress of a death. It IS understandable that Watson would want HIS support system asap in such a terrible situation. Look at how many times families lash out at each other in the situation of a death as each person impacted tries to cope with the overwhelming feelings involved! I remember the surreal situation when my kid brother was killed and I wound up playing middle man trying to keep the anger, pain and shock from causing irriversible damage to family relationships.

Tina's family was unable to talk to Watson for quite some time about her death and when they did, it was a very strange phone call.
I can't imagine that anyone would be in a hurry to get hold of their new in-laws and discuss the death of a loved one they felt you were now responsible to take care of. I wonder how many times the groom is told at the "normal wedding" "Take care of my daughter/sister/mother/aunt/best friend (fill in the applicable title).
Then the funeral director told Tina's family if they made any accusations, they would escorted out of the funeral. They had no knowledge of the status of the police investigation at that point and were surprised at the treatment at the funeral.
I remember an interview where Tina's family and best friend expressed concern about the relationship BEFORE the wedding. What are the chances that Watson was aware of that? What are the chances that Watson's family was trying to watch out for their grieving son? There can be a lot of behind the scenes things and history that can easily explain this.

This article mentions the treatment at the funeral:

Source: Tina Watson: the bride who drowned at the Barrier Reef - Times Online
I am not confident that Reporters always get everything right or try to present an unbiased position with fair representation of both sides of the issue

Sorry - it was one month (4 weeks, not 4 months) after Tina's death that Mr. Thomas spoke with the other divers on the Spoilsport that raised his suspicions about Watson. In the NBC news story, Mr. Thomas said that in his conversation with Australian police, he thought it was an accident, but something the detective said raised his concerns, but the detective wouldn't tell him anything.

"[Tommy] told an officer there named Glenn the brief details of Tina’s drowning that he'd learned from his son-in-law.

Tommy Thomas: And I asked Glenn if that sounded like what he was told. And instead of just telling me, “Yeah, it was a horrible accident.” He said, “Well, that's one thing that we'll look at."

Dennis Murphy: What did that tell you
That tells me that Thomas was already questioning motives and that the police officer was doing his job by not presenting a position on an active case too early in the investigation!



Bruce - read the sequence of events and the links in my post above. Watson started treating Tina's family like crap before they even knew what happened. He did receive their initial support, but he kept essentially slapping them in the face over and over again. Now you are accusing Tina's family of only wanting the insurance money. I honestly cannot blame Tina's family for feeling what they felt. Watson's mother is practically in Australia before they even learn of their daughter's death a day later after she died. Watson avoids speaking to them. The Australian police raise your concerns but they don't tell you anything. Then you are told not to make any accusations at your daughter's funeral or you will be escorted out when you had no intention of doing any such thing. You are skipping a lot of things that happened here. How would you feel if it were your daughter and someone treated you like that?

The discussion thus far has been very one sided IMHO. We are discussing the possibility that Watson may not be the repulsive inconsiderate jerk that the media have painted him. Why is it ok to ascribe negative motives to Watson, his family and Australia but to hint of anything remotely negative to Thomas is not acceptable?
I would never consider going as far as you have on Thomas family behalf. You were talking about defiling the body of someone you supposedly love in the most disgusting manner you could think of for revenge. No reasonable person would do what you suggested (as you suggest). You went too far and I lost some respect for you because of it and personally, I am quite disgusted. I can't believe anyone would support such a statement. There is no value in such a "shock" statement. I would never cross a line like that. Shame - shame.
Nobody is supporting defiling anybody. I can tell you that if I lost my husband on my honeymoon, was accused of murdering him and had an international campaign against me in the media and legal systems I would find that pretty unreasonable even disgusting!

If someone accused my son of the stuff Watson was accused of and I believed as much in his innocence as Tina's family seems to believe in his guilt I would feel that the line of what was "reasonable" had been crossed. Imagine for a minute how you would feel if you felt your loved one's life and reputation were being defiled/destroyed by an unjust campaign. Imagine you had to keep quiet for fear of some comment you made out of frustration being used against them.

So - it's not OK to accuse Australia of not wanting to look bad or spend money on the case. Oh man, I'm horrible, but ItsBruce's disgusting statement of what he think any reasonable man in Watson's situation would do - was OK. God - what is this coming to? All I've ever advocated for was a trial - and not the death penalty. There has not been a trial and there should have been. The judge who took the plea in Australia did not get all the evidence from the DPP.
Australia is a Sovereign State made up of elected representatives who have established laws and systems just like The United States. Both are inanimate and do not have the capacity to WANT anything. Our elected representatives may have motives but to ascribe them to the Country and therefor it's citizens (which includes me) is inappropriate. Where the citizens of a country disagree with the laws and actions of our representatives it is up to us to take the necessary steps to correct those issues AS WE SEE FIT.

I have read over the years that I have participated in these (Watson case)threads that Australia (therefor myself and fellow citizens) should be ASHAMED, EMBARASSED and so on. I have read posts that said AUSTRALIA was an International Laughing Stock because of this case. It was even posted that our next tourist industry would be for people go to Australia to Murder someone! Kgirl I am not saying that you personally made these statements but they have resulted in some Australians getting pretty fed up with what we felt was basicly Australia Bashing! Australian did spend a LOT of money on this case by the way! I don't necessarily agree with everything that is done within our Judicial System but I think it is arguably one of the best in the world! You obviously disagree with the way our Judicial System dealt with this case but it was dealt with and now your System is having it's turn!

I don't agree with or even like some of the laws and positions America has taken but I respect their Sovereign Rights. Pot, Kettle and black come to my mind here. It remains to be seen if the Parties involved or the Parties participating in these threads will find the American processes any more satisfactory than they found the Australian ones!
 
I am not accusing Tina's family of only wanting the insurance money. I am offended and outraged you would even suggest that I was accusing the family of that. I think I was quite clear that that could have been part of Watson's mindset as far as his conduct towards Tina's family.

I spent more than 2 hours working on an analysis of other parts of your post, but I was not happy with the way I was expressing myself. Perhaps it is because I am so angry about your statement about me accusing Tina's family of only wanting the insurance money. In any event, I may respond to the rest of your post and/or provide further analysis later.

I can relate to that Bruce.. I spent a couple hours typing and retyping and rereading my response. I am still not happy with it and fear it will be misunderstood but it is what it is.

I personally believe you have proven to have a very fair minded and clear headed approach to every thread I have seen you participate in! Nobody should be judged/defined by one statement or post when they have a "body of work" (for lack of a better term) such as yours!
 
K-girl
Before this terrible accident, like you I believed virtually everything I read in the papers or heard on the news shows. After all, I grew up with Walter Cronkite and he would not twist the facts for the sake of viewership. But over the last few years, I have come to realize that it is more important for the networks to be first than to be accurate.
I'm Gabes dad. To address one of your comments: I received a phone call from Gabe on October 22nd, 2003 in the 6AM hour. I don't remember the exact time. He was at the Townsville Police station. I made a phone call to Mr. Thomas, who was in Florida at the time, within the hour. I called his cell phone. Since my wife is a teacher, she went to her school to make arrangements to be absent. I called my office and gave instructions for the day since I would not be there. After Glenda returned from school she and I visited my elderly widowed mother to give her the news. My sister-in-law told her elderly mother. The travel agent we had used for years opened her office at 10AM. We made arrangements for Glenda to fly out of Birmingham around 2PM the same day, eight hours after the initial phone call.

Someone commented recently we had refused to allow the Thomas family to participate in funeral arrangements. Attending the meeting were me, Glenda, Gabe, Mr/Mrs. Thomas, Alanda Thomas and two or three Thomas extended family members. Everyone attending was allowed to participate.
Bruce, you are right about being advised not to participate in the media frenzy.
Another thing to think about: Do any of you know a retail sales department manager with four years service that can increase their company provided life insurance to $1.2 milion, let alone afford to do so?
Please all, be more critical in your thinking.
 
Sorry, I missed a couple of points you made.
The funeral director came to me, and may have done the same to Mr. Thomas. He said, and I paraphrase, seeing that there is friction between the two families I am going to open up an additional viewing parlor so there will be plenty of room for everyone to spread out. I can't imagine a funeral director would threaten someone with being removed from a visitation or funeral. If he did, it wasn't done at my direction.
The phone call: Since none of us were listening in, we can only speculate. Don't remember the time frame but I'm sure it was an awkward call for all involved. I know all three, Mr. Thomas, Mrs. Thomas and Alanda Thomas were on extension phones talking to Gabe at the same time. I can't imagine it went well but none of us know what was said.
 
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