Watson Murder Case - Discussion

[K_girl]

K_Girl:

Second, if her air had been turned off, was it off long enough to have killed her or at least made her death a certainty?..

You may recall Shakybrainsurgeon (sp?) told us that to be fatal, the air has to be off for a long time. I forget how long, but I was surprised by it. If Watson had turned Tina's air off until he thought she was dead, unless he knew how long that had to be, he might have turned it back on in time for her to not to have died. (I know that had it been me, I would have figured a few minutes ... and been wrong.)

Of the questions you asked, this is the only one I can find some kind of an answer to, this quote comes from the same source I quoted above:

"..The point at which a person dies depends largely on the age of the victim and the temperature of the water--if warm, somewhere between 3 and 10 minutes.."

Source: Drowning investigations. - Free Online Library

However, the way they describe the drowning process, I believe the person becomes incapacitated and unconscious before they actually die. This explains how some people who are pulled from the water completely limp may still be revived. For instance, if you took a lung full of water while underwater, I think you might become incapacitated and unconscious quite quickly and may not be able to survive unless someone gets you out of the water and gets the water out of your lungs.

Thanks for the compliment, just wish I had more information to look at - and then a better understanding of whatever it is I was looking at.

 

[K_girl]

K-girl, I had posted a couple of times waaaay back in the previous Watson thread that one of your American news shows (MSNBC? Dateline? 20/20?) had an unrelated coroner speaking about the findings of the Watson case and he said that there was NO water in her lungs. I had been surprised since that was the first time I heard that. He said that is why they believed her tank was turned off until she was dead/nearly dead, and then turned back on. He also said that the "bear hug" was important because the pressure on the chest area could speed up the asphyxiation process.

Each time I wrote the above in regard to someone asking about water in her lungs, you discounted the information because it wasn't "in the coroner's report", whatever became public anyway. I think that the possible oxygen deprivation information you are now noticing is more information relating to what I had seen on one of the news shows a couple of years ago. We obviously do not have all the information that is available to investigators.

I have the June 5th replay on my TIVO, I will take second look and see if they kept that segment. What was in the Coroner's Report however, was that they ruled out unconsciousness as causing the laryngeal spasm. What I did not know at the time of your postings was that laryngeal spasm blocks water from entering the lungs. I errantly discounted what you said because I could not imagine that Tina would have a such a tight grip with her lips on the reg that no water at all would get in. My medical ignorance, so sorry.

However, since "dry drowning" occurs in 10-15% of the time in all drowning cases, they could not conclude that a small amount of water touching the larynx did not cause the laryngeal spasm. We don't know why the coroner concluded that unconsciousness did not cause the spasm. I'm left to guess that it was ruled out because Tina still had the reg in her mouth. If she had gone unconscious first, she probably would have lost the reg and inhaled large amounts of water.

 

[livinoz]

Bruce, I'm shocked...surely you have been around the law long enough to know that media reporting rarely reflects the reality of what goes in in the legal system, whether the courts or the investigation side of things. Perhaps things are different in the Us, but in Oz, unfortunately, it is appalling. I for one would not even bother speculating based upon a news outlet's report of something that may or may not be in the actual autopsy report. I certainly wouldn't do it without knowing that they in fact had a copy of the autopsy report, and would prefer not to do it without knowing what else was in that report.

Here, here! I am so tired of the reliance on the media for "evidence" in this case.

 

[TaiHei]

Bruce, I'm shocked...surely you have been around the law long enough to know that media reporting rarely reflects the reality of what goes in in the legal system, whether the courts or the investigation side of things. Perhaps things are different in the Us, but in Oz, unfortunately, it is appalling. I for one would not even bother speculating based upon a news outlet's report of something that may or may not be in the actual autopsy report. I certainly wouldn't do it without knowing that they in fact had a copy of the autopsy report, and would prefer not to do it without knowing what else was in that report.

I agree

We should take MSNBC, 20/20 and the other media sources with a grain of salt. However, it doesn't mean everything they report is false.

What source would you believe, other than the coroner's report?

How about the Office of the Townsville Coroner?

In their "Finding of Inquest", they give four possible explanations which may support a finding of accidental drowning. One of them is Laryngospasm.

Also it accepts unconsciousness was possible following a Laryngospasm, but discounted this as the cause of death.

A diver experiencing Laryngospasm would not be able to breathe, and I think would have a tendancy to bolt to the surface. The symptoms usually last 45-60 sec, but the victim could be at the surface in maybe 10 secs from 40 feet. Their must have been some reason Tina could not make it to the surface. This assumes that the Laryngospasm attack happened on its own. It seems to me Laryngospasm would prevent drowning in a lot of cases by preventing water from entering the lungs. The big problem comes when the victim cannot get air after the attack is over.

The report concluded that a properly instructed jury, could make a finding
of guilt against David Gabriel Watson on a charge of Murder.

I can see enough in the report on the Laryngospasm theory to support the prosecution and defense. It explains how the victim could drown and not have water in the lungs. Maybe it is enough to cause reasonable doubt in the jurors, and the trial could go either way. I understand the plea bargain more now.

It looks like the Aussies were way ahead of us.

 

[livinoz]

I agree

We should take MSNBC, 20/20 and the other media sources with a grain of salt. However, it doesn't mean everything they report is false.

What source would you believe, other than the coroner's report?

How about the Office of the Townsville Coroner?

In their "Finding of Inquest", they give four possible explanations which may support a finding of accidental drowning. One of them is Laryngospasm.

Also it accepts unconsciousness was possible following a Laryngospasm, but discounted this as the cause of death.

A diver experiencing Laryngospasm would not be able to breathe, and I think would have a tendancy to bolt to the surface. The symptoms usually last 45-60 sec, but the victim could be at the surface in maybe 10 secs from 40 feet. Their must have been some reason Tina could not make it to the surface. This assumes that the Laryngospasm attack happened on its own. It seems to me Laryngospasm would prevent drowning in a lot of cases by preventing water from entering the lungs. The big problem comes when the victim cannot get air after the attack is over.

The report concluded that a properly instructed jury, could make a finding
of guilt against David Gabriel Watson on a charge of Murder.

I can see enough in the report on the Laryngospasm theory to support the prosecution and defense. It explains how the victim could drown and not have water in the lungs. Maybe it is enough to cause reasonable doubt in the jurors, and the trial could go either way. I understand the plea bargain more now.

It looks like the Aussies were way ahead of us.

The full Coroner's Report is not available to the public, unless you meet the criteria for obtaining a copy from the Townsville Coroner's Office?

There are very few media people here who thinking Australians would consider to be objective in their journalism. The findings of the Coroner (which has been discussed in another thread on this case I believe) aren't freely available in their entirety. So as U-E was saying, if we don't have the full copy of the autopsy report with its many addenda, then we don't have the full picture.

 

[ItsBruce]

Don't flame me. People obviously misunderstood my reference to "evidence" that could support a "hypothesis." I intended only to compliment K_girl for finding some statistics on dry drowning.

 

[bowlofpetunias]

Don't flame me. People obviously misunderstood my reference to "evidence" that could support a "hypothesis." I intended only to compliment K_girl for finding some statistics on dry drowning.

While I may not always agree with K-girl I agree that her effort on providing information and stats on Dry drowning was helpful! Your contributions have also been worthwhile to me.

The information I have on "dry drowning" and Laryngospasm are based on training and information that may not be the most current. I wanted to wait till I have some time to do a bit more research before getting into any detail on it.

Simply put a spasm is a muscular contraction of the Laynx. Muscular contractions tend to relax when a person goes unconscious. Most often the water is ingested... swallowed into the stomach which is what makes people vomit when they are rescued from the water.

The body shuts down access to the lungs with a Laryngospasm to protect us from inhaling things into the lungs that damage them. You are familiar with this occurrance. Think of when you have been eating or more often drinking and "it goes down the wrong hole" if you try to talk you cough and your voice sounds strange. You are experiencing a "very minor laryngospasm". Your voice box it spasming but not blocking totally. Some people are more prone to have these than others which I am sure most of you are aware of as well.

I really want to do some more research into current info before I comment further.. but I hope this simplified explanation is helpful

 

[Under-Exposed]

Bruce...my tongue was planted in my cheek a little...wasn't intending the "flame".

 

[Under-Exposed]

While I may not always agree with K-girl I agree that her effort on providing information and stats on Dry drowning was helpful! Your contributions have also been worthwhile to me.

The information I have on "dry drowning" and Laryngospasm are based on training and information that may not be the most current. I wanted to wait till I have some time to do a bit more research before getting into any detail on it.

Simply put a spasm is a muscular contraction of the Laynx. Muscular contractions tend to relax when a person goes unconscious. Most often the water is ingested... swallowed into the stomach which is what makes people vomit when they are rescued from the water.

The body shuts down access to the lungs with a Laryngospasm to protect us from inhaling things into the lungs that damage them. You are familiar with this occurrance. Think of when you have been eating or more often drinking and "it goes down the wrong hole" if you try to talk you cough and your voice sounds strange. You are experiencing a "very minor laryngospasm". Your voice box it spasming but not blocking totally. Some people are more prone to have these than others which I am sure most of you are aware of as well.

I really want to do some more research into current info before I comment further.. but I hope this simplified explanation is helpful

Well, according to the Australian bible on dive medicine, it is unlikely there is such a thing as true "dry drowning" (ie drowning with no aspirant) because once the body reaches a certain level of hypoxia or hypercapnia, the spasm relaxes spontaneously, thereby allowing the entry of water. So "dry drownings" are likely initiated by laryngospasm resulting in acute asphyxia, and then one the spasm relaxes allowing the entry of water, true drowning occurs. The explanation for autopsy findings failing to reveal water in the lungs is that it is rapidly absorbed.

 

[K_girl]

Well, according to the Australian bible on dive medicine, it is unlikely there is such a thing as true "dry drowning" (ie drowning with no aspirant) because once the body reaches a certain level of hypoxia or hypercapnia, the spasm relaxes spontaneously, thereby allowing the entry of water. So "dry drownings" are likely initiated by laryngospasm resulting in acute asphyxia, and then one the spasm relaxes allowing the entry of water, true drowning occurs. The explanation for autopsy findings failing to reveal water in the lungs is that it is rapidly absorbed.

I would be curious to know what the dive bible says about those drowning autopsies that find a lot of water in the lungs and what that means as opposed to those where little water is found in the lungs. I think a good comparison to Tina's case would be to cases where divers have been trapped, run out of air and found with the reg still in their mouth and those divers who panicked, the reg out of their mouth, indicating they had breathed water directly into their lungs.

It would be much appreciated if you could directly quote the information you've sited.