Watson Murder Case - Discussion

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... As far as I am concerned the judge made a mistake in saying that to Watson "for which you are not guilty", when he should have said "for which you have not been found guilty."

I wholeheartedly agree, though I expect the Judge really meant the "for which you have not been found guilty."

... I did NOT talk about this in terms of trying to say Watson was guilty of murder, I talked about it in terms of this plea setting precedence to expose divers to criminal liability. Many others on this board the same point I have - that the manslaughter conviction makes no sense.

As I've noted, manslaughter makes little or no sense and though it does not set a legal precedent and is not binding on any future court, it sets a bad precedent in terms of prosecutorial mindset, e.g. "If I got it once, I can get it again."

Since the plea is to manslaughter, the Judge cannot take into account his or others' feelings that Watson was really guilty of murder.
 
... I do feel that Gabe Watson's interview with the police was a big part of questioning his truthfullness and that cannot be denied. It is on tape. Batteries in backwards yet computer beeping at him, is just one example. There are so many other examples to go along with that one that make people doubt his truthfullness altogether. HIS WORDS. Not the media or the "mob"

You, too, have hit the nail on the head. As a result, I am compelled to once again post the following for consideration:

Disloyal Opposition: Eight reasons even the innocent shouldn't talk to the police
 
My final post for the day (I think):

Under the English Common Law, which is the basis of the legal system in Australia, the U.S. and many other places, "legal precedent" is created when an appellate court publishes an opinion after reviewing a decision by a lower court. When there is such an opinion, it is binding on lower courts within the jurisdiction. It may have persuasive value to other courts, but it is not binding. In addition, an opinion is only as good as its analysis of how existing law relates to the facts of a particular case. Thus, other courts may distinguish even a published opinion by pointing to differences in the facts. For example, IF the Watson case resulted in a published opinion saying that Watson was guilty of manslaughter, another court might distinguish it away by noting that Watson and Tina were married while divers in a case before it were not. Additionally, other appellate courts may criticize the reasoning if they find it unsound or not really supported by the facts.

I do not think that the Watson matter sets any sort of precedent that any divers will have to worry about.
 
Livinoz - I'm sure the judge would have access to anything he wanted, but it really would have been a waste of his time to second guess what the prosecutor presented in the plea agreement. One motive that the judge clearly stated in his sentencing remarks was his praise for Watson in saving the government money. Apparently, he paid little to no attention to the "feelings" of Tina's family as he also praised Watson for sparing the family the heartache and pain of a trial. The family fought for years for a trial and it brought severe anguish for them that the trial had been denied. The judge clearly made an error in judgement on that. Any statements by the family in a pre-sentence report would be limited to the impact of Tina's death on them. The family would not have an opportunity to present any facts regarding Watson's statements to them that led them to believe that he was guilty of murder.

I am sure that it is extremely rare that a judge will tell a prosecutor, "no - I want you to find the evidence you need and go to trial." The judge is basically going to do what the prosecutor wants. And I think that the statements the judge made regarding Tina's family clearly told me that he was out of touch regarding them. Makes me wonder just how out of touch he was with everything else.
 
As I've noted, manslaughter makes little or no sense and though it does not set a legal precedent and is not binding on any future court, it sets a bad precedent in terms of prosecutorial mindset, e.g. "If I got it once, I can get it again."

However, the appeal of the sentence has put forth an argument of "deterrence" as a reason for lengthening his sentence. I believe that you mentioned that precedence is not set until it is heard by an appeals court and they render an opinion. If the "deterrence" argument is accepted at this appeal and Watson's sentence is lengthened, will this set the precedence that so many of us are concerned about?
 
My final post for the day (I think):

Under the English Common Law, which is the basis of the legal system in Australia, the U.S. and many other places, "legal precedent" is created when an appellate court publishes an opinion after reviewing a decision by a lower court. When there is such an opinion, it is binding on lower courts within the jurisdiction. It may have persuasive value to other courts, but it is not binding. In addition, an opinion is only as good as its analysis of how existing law relates to the facts of a particular case. Thus, other courts may distinguish even a published opinion by pointing to differences in the facts. For example, IF the Watson case resulted in a published opinion saying that Watson was guilty of manslaughter, another court might distinguish it away by noting that Watson and Tina were married while divers in a case before it were not. Additionally, other appellate courts may criticize the reasoning if they find it unsound or not really supported by the facts.

I do not think that the Watson matter sets any sort of precedent that any divers will have to worry about.

I couldn't agree more. And because of that...it makes the Guilty plea of Manslaughter and the judges statements seem that much more off kilter. It has not been explained to me, to my satisfaction, why Gabe Watson is behind bars. If he did not murder his wife, just what did he do or not do? There is no clarity for me in the statements. If he is only guilty of failing to rescue or letting his wife drown (whatever that means) and that equates to manslaughter. I think he is being overly punished and that is a travesty.

Do I think the "evidence" (big quotation marks) points to an innocent man? No, I don't. But, based on the findings of the court and the reasons set forth for the findings, based on that alone, this punishment is unjust.

And, if as you say, they were trying to get some kind of sentence meeted out here...then why are the prosecuters and judge allowed to have that kind of mindset? Sounds like they wanted to exact some type of punishment and this is their best case scenario to do so. That doesn't pass the smell test right along with all the others who still want more severe punishment for this guy without iron-clad evidence, IMHO.
 
But in that case doesn't that mean you are presuming all the Judge knew was basically whatever the Crown wanted him to know?

Watson was in Australia for three weeks, in custody, before he made his guilty plea, or should I say his guilty plea was made public. The Judge had access not only to the complete Coroner's report but to all the witness statements, the tapes recorded by the police and every report from the protracted investigation. He would also have had a pre-sentence report which can include victim statements (or family in this case) as well as any other relevant information. From your post, are you suggesting he would have made up his mind basically on the spot regarding the sentence? Reading through his sentencing remarks I think not; he had obviously read and prepared his statement and then sentenced accordingly. Yes, there was no trial and no chance to cross-examine the witnesses but do you think after six years they would have had much to add, other than what was in their original statements?

Yes, I agree that the guilty plea and sentencing remarks pose a problem for divers. Until that precedent is tested though we have no way of knowing how it will impact on us all. Bear in mind that many other cases also set precedents, and as far as I'm aware it doesn't necessarily follow that people will be found guilty on precedent alone. Speaking personally I have no real problem with the way this particular case has been handled by the Judiciary here, and any concerns I have can be addressed by recourse to the legal system itself. We have an adversarial system which presumes innocence until proven otherwise, and I have to believe that will be sufficient. Some may view that as naive, I do not.

We have the same system in the USA. We are taught that from day one. "Innocent until proven gulity". It is human nature that some people will draw conclusions before the trial. But, we all hope and pray the jury of peers will follow the law and make their decisions based on instructions given to them by the court. And we know they are hearing or sometimes not hearing things in the day to day courtroom proceedings that the rest of us are not privy to. (or that we heard that should not have been admissible)

However, a trial of peers did not happen in Gabe Watson case. So, many do now scratch their head wondering what was intended by the judges statements. I do not go around thinking that judges are all knowing and infallible people. It is nice to know we now have an appeal process pending, even if it means to exonerate Gabe Watson. Or, at the very least, to clarify, legally, just what the real intent of this sentence truly was/is.

As for the innocent until proven guilty. I thought Gabe Watson agreed he was guilty of manslaugher. I, for one, am not sure what crime Gabe Watson was proven to be guilty of at this point that would warrant a 4 and 1/2 year sentence by this judge. Are you saying he is really innocent and not guilty of anything? So, you should be quite upset by him being in jail.

I found the judges statements to be of concern. (I need to review them again) and at first I was willing to take his judgement as much more knowledgeable than my own. But on better review, statements such as, saving the taxpayers money, sparing the family a trial, not to mention the statements about Gabe's failure to save his wife or letting her drown. Even if not one other person were to be tried in an Australian court for "lack of saving" another diver...that does not justify the judge using that excuse as a reason to sentence this man to prison. IMHO.
 
Under the English Common Law, which is the basis of the legal system in Australia, the U.S. and many other places, "legal precedent" is created when an appellate court publishes an opinion after reviewing a decision by a lower court. When there is such an opinion, it is binding on lower courts within the jurisdiction. It may have persuasive value to other courts, but it is not binding. In addition, an opinion is only as good as its analysis of how existing law relates to the facts of a particular case. Thus, other courts may distinguish even a published opinion by pointing to differences in the facts. For example, IF the Watson case resulted in a published opinion saying that Watson was guilty of manslaughter, another court might distinguish it away by noting that Watson and Tina were married while divers in a case before it were not. Additionally, other appellate courts may criticize the reasoning if they find it unsound or not really supported by the facts.

I do not think that the Watson matter sets any sort of precedent that any divers will have to worry about.


Since Australia severed legal and constitutional ties with the English Privy Council the role of English precedent has been diminishing and there has been a move towards statute law. Australian law now depends almost exclusively on Australian precedent, with recourse to the High Court of Australia. The Supreme Courts in each state are bound strictly to decisions made by the High Court of Australia, even if they believe those decisions are wrong. The only court able to overturn those decisions is the High Court itself, although it is of course reluctant to do that. The lower courts in Australia are also not bound by everything that is said in a judicial decision or by all of the judicial observations of a higher court; rather it is not the case that binds a lower court, but the rationes decidendi, according to Justice Michael Kirby, (Precedent Law, Practice and Trends in Australia, Australian Bar Review, December 2006). I therefore don't believe a legal precedent is solely due to an appellate court publishing an opinion "after reviewing a decision by a lower court"; binding precedents are just that, but persuasive precedents are not. A precedent given by a court to which there is a right of appeal from the court in which the precedent is cited is binding. Therefore a decision by the High Court of Australia is binding on the Supreme Court of each state. But all other decisions are said to be persuasive, for example a decision of the Court of Appeal in Queensland is not binding on the Supreme Court of Victoria. I also noted that Superior court decisions which contribute to the body of precedent are those dealing with a new set of circumstances that are sufficiently different from past cases such that they warrant a new reason for a judicial decision; such cases contributing to the common law are of course recorded in recognised law reports. I would argue that this case does meet the criteria, being sufficiently different from preceding cases, and therefore setting a precedent. Whether that is upheld is another matter, as persuasive precedents are not mandatory or binding until adopted by a higher court.


We have the same system in the USA. We are taught that from day one. "Innocent until proven gulity". It is human nature that some people will draw conclusions before the trial. But, we all hope and pray the jury of peers will follow the law and make their decisions based on instructions given to them by the court. And we know they are hearing or sometimes not hearing things in the day to day courtroom proceedings that the rest of us are not privy to. (or that we heard that should not have been admissible)

However, a trial of peers did not happen in Gabe Watson case. So, many do now scratch their head wondering what was intended by the judges statements. I do not go around thinking that judges are all knowing and infallible people. It is nice to know we now have an appeal process pending, even if it means to exonerate Gabe Watson. Or, at the very least, to clarify, legally, just what the real intent of this sentence truly was/is.

As for the innocent until proven guilty. I thought Gabe Watson agreed he was guilty of manslaugher. I, for one, am not sure what crime Gabe Watson was proven to be guilty of at this point that would warrant a 4 and 1/2 year sentence by this judge. Are you saying he is really innocent and not guilty of anything? So, you should be quite upset by him being in jail.

I found the judges statements to be of concern. (I need to review them again) and at first I was willing to take his judgement as much more knowledgeable than my own. But on better review, statements such as, saving the taxpayers money, sparing the family a trial, not to mention the statements about Gabe's failure to save his wife or letting her drown. Even if not one other person were to be tried in an Australian court for "lack of saving" another diver...that does not justify the judge using that excuse as a reason to sentence this man to prison. IMHO.

So basically we've gone from "he's guilty of murder" to "he's guilty of manslaughter", to we're not sure what crime he's committed and therefore the sentence isn't warranted? That's quite a shift in attitude. In my opinion as he pleaded guilty to manslaughter of his own volition, and that is the conviction that has been recorded against his name, I'll live with the Court's decision. My other remarks were regarding K_girl's questions as to my own concerns regarding any precedent in this case being used against another diver (see above), and had nothing to do with my view of Watson's guilt or innocence. I still believe the Judge had access to all the information necessary to sentence after reading his remarks and other information from various sources, and until someone can prove otherwise I'll continue to believe he made an informed decision.

May I add that the Court of Appeal is only looking at this case to ascertain whether the length of his sentence was appropriate, and not to overturn the decision.
 
However, the appeal of the sentence has put forth an argument of "deterrence" as a reason for lengthening his sentence. I believe that you mentioned that precedence is not set until it is heard by an appeals court and they render an opinion. If the "deterrence" argument is accepted at this appeal and Watson's sentence is lengthened, will this set the precedence that so many of us are concerned about?

I do not believe there will be any precedent that should be of concern to the dive community that is not of equal concern to every other corner of society.

Beyond that, I'm going to take a wild guess here. It is wild because I know nothing of Australian appellate procedure. BUT, my guess is that the appellate court will say that the sentence is up to the trial judge.
 
I couldn't agree more. And because of that...it makes the Guilty plea of Manslaughter and the judges statements seem that much more off kilter. It has not been explained to me, to my satisfaction, why Gabe Watson is behind bars. If he did not murder his wife, just what did he do or not do? There is no clarity for me in the statements. If he is only guilty of failing to rescue or letting his wife drown (whatever that means) and that equates to manslaughter. I think he is being overly punished and that is a travesty.

Not that I want to equivocate, but "yes" and "no." On the one hand, if he is only guilty of failing to rescue or letting his wife drown, I think he is being overly punished and that is a travesty. On the other hand, I also think that in as much as Watson pled guilty to manslaughter to avoid the risk of being found guilty of murder, the judge can't just let Watson go.
 
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