warmest wetsuit available

[Thalassamania]

The Pinnacle 8/6 semi dry Merino II is one of the warmest suits
Laboratory tests have proven that Merino II lined neoprene is approximately 46% more thermally efficient than conventional neoprenes, meaning that the Extreme has the thermal efficiency of a suit that is nearly 12mm thick, yet with all the mobility and reduced buoyancy of a much thinner suit
Truly the warmest semi-dry or wetsuit that money can buy
8mm Titanium body and 6mm Titanium arms and legs for superior mobility
Merino lining for increased warmth and comfort
Titanium material for superior warmth
Attached 6mm Merino lined hood for maximum warmth
10MM Spine & Kidney pad to keep the chill out
Molded rubber shoulder pads designed to grip the buoyancy compensator and reduce shifting
Kevlar knee pads provide exceptional grip and durability
One-way flow vent at the top of the hood to minimize air trapping
Horizontal front zip provides a large entry that closes effortlessly
Zippered ankles provide comfortable fit, tight seal
Wrist, ankle and neck seals helps keep cold out
Drysuit zipper keeps all water from entering through the chest area

Here is a link to the size chart. Keep in mind itis easier to cut a suit down to fit than add material: http://www.scuba.com/resources/sizechart/pinnacle.htm

I just read Pinnacle's explanation of why merino is great and it contains such bizarre contradictions of physics and chemistry that frankly I, for one, would adjudge buying a suit from them as more akin to joining a cult than obtaining thermal protection.

Water is not, as they claim, "an excellent thermal insulator." Nor is the wetting of wool, "exothermic, which means it releases a significant amount of heat as it absorbs water." Exothermic is a word that describes a chemical reaction that release heat as a result of a chemical change in the material (e.g., the total energy absorbed in chemical bond breaking is less than the total energy released in chemical bond making.)

Pinnacle claims that "In recent tests by the British Textile Technology Group, Merino™ proved to offer a 35% increase in thermal efficiency, in both dry and saturated conditions, over the best synthetic linings." but clearly does not compare itself to skin-two-side or skin-in material that are, I expect, far superior.

Are Pinnacle suits any good? I don't know, I've never used one. But I have to be suspicious of anyone making such obviously horse pucky claims.

 

[emcbride81]

Bare arctic 7mm...you should have no problem finding your size...they have an in depth sizing chart. I have one and have been in 40 degree water with nothing cold but my cheeks...on my face...

 

[Stu S.]

Pinnacle is sold by the smaller dive shops here. A group of us got the 3mm "Breaker" suits when a local shop was closing up. I find it comfortable. Does not show much wear. It has a "reverse turtleneck" collar, that may not fit all hoods. There is a rubber tab up by the neck that needs re-gluing. I'll do that tonight.

I would rate it as above average, but not superior. Good at 72 degrees. These were on sale for $90-100. The regular dive shop price (list price) was $175. It is not worth the list price.

 

[Paco II]

All I can say about my Pinnacle is that it is incredibly comfortable and incredibly warm. I don't know what the Merino lining is doing, but I do prefer the smell it has when wet as compared to a pure neoprene suit

 

[daniel f aleman]

Pinnacle suits (the better lines) are exellent. I too laugh at their "marketing" claims sometimes... but for an off the rack brand, they're they're there with Henderson. But I agree with Thal, a suit made with G-231 Rubatex is top of the line in wetsuits - and probably should be bought buy professionals whose diving profiles warrant the cost.

 

[Temple of Doom]

Nor is the wetting of wool, "exothermic, which means it releases a significant amount of heat as it absorbs water." Exothermic is a word that describes a chemical reaction that release heat as a result of a chemical change in the material (e.g., the total energy absorbed in chemical bond breaking is less than the total energy released in chemical bond making.)

I have no past, current, or future use of a Pinnacle suit, nor do I know if adding water to their wool generates heat. However, your statement about the definition of exothermic is not entirely correct.

The term exothermic is not limited only to describing chemical reactions, it is used to describe non-reactive processes as well. For example freezing and condensation are exothermic. They are not chemical reactions, but they are exothermic.

I imagine your conclusion that the wetting of the wool is not exothermic is based on this faulty definition, and not from actual information about the process. I've no information on the process either, I don't know whether it is or isn't exothermic, but I do know that the reason you state that it cannot be is incorrect.

Also, while I agree that their marketing team may be hyping things a bit (as is their job, our job is to sort through the hype), I don't necessarily think your examples are valid. For example, you claim that they "clearly" didn't compare the merino to skin-two-side or skin-in material. This is an assumption on your part (unless you've other information that you chose not to post). I don't think that it's fair to use an unfounded assumption as an example of how their marketing material may be misleading.

I wouldn't be surprised if their suits were not the best insulators. However, despite your claims, I didn't see you quote a single "bizarre contradiction of physics and chemistry". Certainly it's valuable to ask questions, and cast doubt based on your (unquestionably broad) experience, but I did find it ironic that you made aspersions against Pinnacle for making "horse pucky claims" with "horse pucky claims" of your own. I think we'd all be better served if we keep the criticisms of their advertising accurate and objective.

Craig

PS: Now bring on the flames for daring to speak against Thalissima...

 

[Rob9000]

I think the merino wool thing is all marketing hype. I have two Pinnacle suits - the 3mm with merino...Pinnacle says it is as warm as a 5mm...I can say it is no warmer than my 3mm Henderson stretchy. I also have the Pinnacle Arctic - so 7/5 "semi-dry" with full merino....the neck seal lets water stream down my back and overall I find the suit so warmer than what I would expect a 7/5 to be, so in 57 deg F water with a merino hooded vest (3mm vest / 5mm hood) I am still really cold and was warmer in my old cheapie 7mm farmer john 2-piece.

The merino thing seems to be counter how wet suits work....the water does not insulate you, so you want the less amount of water possible since water is a conductor and just transfers heat from you to the wet suit. Also, take off a merino suit...dry yourself off on a surface interval, then go to put it back on....all that wool is still soaked with cold water.

I am thinking to sell both suits and go with a custom suit for warmer water and either a dry suit or a custom wet suit for cold water.

 

[Thalassamania]

... However, your statement about the definition of exothermic is not entirely correct.

The term exothermic is not limited only to describing chemical reactions, it is used to describe non-reactive processes as well. For example freezing and condensation are exothermic. They are not chemical reactions, but they are exothermic.

Change of state from solid to liquid and liquid to gas are properly described as exothermic, but change of state was not relevent to Pinnacle's "claims."

I imagine your conclusion that the wetting of the wool is not exothermic is based on this faulty definition, and not from actual information about the process.

My definition was not faulty, it was as arguably incomplete, but fine for the purpose of this discussion.

I've no information on the process either, I don't know whether it is or isn't exothermic, but I do know that the reason you state that it cannot be is incorrect.

Pinnacle claims that, "Merino™ is 'exothermic', which means it releases a significant amount of heat as it absorbs water," This is clearly an unfounded claim that defies the laws of physics. The wetting of wool is not an exothermeic process, neither as a result of chemical or (the demonstrably irrelevent for this discussion) state of matter change, you comments are off base and irrelevant.

... I don't necessarily think your examples are valid. For example, you claim that they "clearly" didn't compare the merino to skin-two-side or skin-in material. This is an assumption on your part (unless you've other information that you chose not to post). I don't think that it's fair to use an unfounded assumption as an example of how their marketing material may be misleading.

Pinnacle claims, "a 35% increase in thermal efficiency, in both dry and saturated conditions, over the best synthetic linings," clearly they exclude comparison to "unlined" materials which I maintain are warmer.

I wouldn't be surprised if their suits were not the best insulators. However, despite your claims, I didn't see you quote a single "bizarre contradiction of physics and chemistry". Certainly it's valuable to ask questions, and cast doubt based on your (unquestionably broad) experience, but I did find it ironic that you made aspersions against Pinnacle for making "horse pucky claims" with "horse pucky claims" of your own. I think we'd all be better served if we keep the criticisms of their advertising accurate and objective.

My "claims" are clearly documented. The only "error" that I made was in incompletely describing "exothermic processes" by excluding change of state which is irrelevant to the discussion. If you can not find a slew of "bizarre contradiction of physics and chemistry" in the claims on their web site I strongly recommend a rigorous review of your high school chemistry and physics classes.

 

[Paco II]

annnywaaaay, back on topic...

one of the suits mentioned is a fullsuit with attached hood (and front horizontal zipper). Just a note that I had a similar suit, but got rid of it as I didn't like the feel of it at all. I had a terribly hard time getting it off by myself. I usually needed someone's help to get it up and over my head. It also felt a bit too constricting. Just something to add to the OPs research.

 

[Temple of Doom]

I worried that that would get your hackles up. Trust me it was not my intent. I'm sure you're not used to being corrected on these boards. I'm also sure that you're usually not wrong.

Change of state from solid to liquid and liquid to gas are properly described as exothermic, but change of state was not relevent to Pinnacle's "claims."
My definition was not faulty, it was as arguably incomplete, but fine for the purpose of this discussion.
Pinnacle claims that, "Merino™ is 'exothermic', which means it releases a significant amount of heat as it absorbs water," This is clearly an unfounded claim that defies the laws of physics.

The change of state examples I gave are not the only exothermic processes other than chemical reaction. This statement that the claim defies the laws of physics is completely unfounded, further it is incorrect.

Another exothermic non-reactive process is sorption (absorption and adsorption). In physics and chemistry terms what we commonly refer to as absorption is actually adsorption. Adsorption is the process that occurs when a liquid (or gas) accumulates on the surface of a solid. Absorption is when a liquid or gas diffuses into a liquid or solid forming a solution.

Adsorption (and absorption, though that's not relevant to the discussion) is an exothermic process. The notion that wetting wool being exothermic somehow defies the laws of physics is simply not correct. When you apply liquid water to wool (any fabric) it will be exothermic. The wetting of wool happens to be more exothermic than all the other synthetic or natural fabrics reported to have been tested. How appreciable it is is debatable, but the fact that it happens is not.

The wetting of wool is not an exothermeic process, neither as a result of chemical or (the demonstrably irrelevent for this discussion) state of matter change, you comments are off base and irrelevant.

This statement just isn't true. Making this statement to illustrate that the claim of exothermic process is "horse pucky" just doesn't work. Please explain if you disagree.

Pinnacle claims, "a 35% increase in thermal efficiency, in both dry and saturated conditions, over the best synthetic linings," clearly they exclude comparison to "unlined" materials which I maintain are warmer.

I don't see how it's clear at all that they didn't test these materials. Please explain how this is not an assumption on your part. You may very well be right, but it's valuable to highlight which conclusions are based on assumptions and which on information.

I'm not spoiling for a fight, merely interested an accurate and objective discussion of the pros/cons of the wool system. I look forward to further discussion if the goals are shared.

Craig