VIP Stickers & o2 cleaning

[Topbodz]

I see so many different versions of VIP stickers on tanks...

They all pretty much amount to the same thing.....

What confuses me is the "Cleaned for premix up to 40%" part

I can see that one would clean a tank & valve for Oxygen service up to 100%

but How do they clean for only 40%????

From what I understand, any tank coming for the factory is cleaned for up to 40%

so my opinion is that they are NOT really cleaned. Cleaning is not necessary for only 40%....

can somebody clear that up for me...


thanks

 

[Jax]

Good question!!!

Notice it says "premix to 40%". That means the up-to-40% has to be banked or injected O₂ or something along those lines. In other words, NOT O₂ clean. Just clean, I suppose --- anyone?

The tank HAS to be O₂-clean for any partial pressure blending, as they will fill it to a certain pressure with pure O₂, and then top off with air.

This sounds like a way to charge you for a cleaning that is not O₂ clean.

 

[NAM001]

I know i am going to get a lot of flack of this. But here is my OPINION. Turn the clock back to before O2 cleaning was required for only ">40%". The only cleaning needed for air was no particulate and oil slick and trash. If a tank had no oil in it you tipped tha tank upside down and it was now clean. I am speeking very basically". O2 < 40 WAS TO BE TREATED LIKE AIR. I think > 60 was to be treated like pure O2. Safety buffer lowered it to >40. That accompdated noaa 2 and up to 40%.

Cleaning for > 40 (treat like 100%o2) brought into play a lot of higher standards to satisfy the O2 clean statement. Any thing in contact with the gas was to be cleaned to o2 standards.

Example non o2 cleaning and inspection for valves meant r/r orings and remove debris. For O2 cleaning it involves ultrasound cleaning. hydrocarbon residue testing ect. For the cylinders, the same (generaly speaking) applies as well. Lots of tumbling and cleaners involved removal on non o2 compliant lub's ect. The process in not rocket science but it is also not the same as a cleaning for standard air use. The clean for O2 like JAX has stated is to allow enriched mixes to be put into cylendars with out exposing the cylendar to o2 concentrations exceedung "40%" makinig it ACCEPTABLE to fill tanks with nitrox without the pure O2 hazzards. BTW new tanks as far as I know all come new with the sticker "Sutable for use up to 40% O@ without O2 service cleaning"from the factory.

Hope this helps. You can look at Vance Harlows book Oxygen Hacker for more details relating to thee O2 cleaning Process.


Once again i am speaking on the most basic level in regard to o2 cleaning.

 

[T. Bix]

Why would you catch flack for that? You're pretty much right on the money except you left out the part about the money! I was recently quoted $35 to oxygen clean my valves after I already cleaned them..... It's not rocket science but I don't have the stickers and cards to attest to the cleaning to this particular LDS' satisfaction. FWIW they would sell me a "new" valve for just $4 more than the quoted cleaning price. Now I know you have to assume that average Joe isn't "Super Tech" and therefore not qualified to service his/her own gear but I am a Maintenance Technician for machines and devices that require exponentually more precision and and attention to detail. I do have a "gas blender" card but don't yet have the PSI card to satisfy the requirement to do what I am well qualified to do. I am reasonably certain that I am not unique but I am frustrated by LDSs that make up law or clearly mis-interpret actual law for the purpose of selling gear and services that are not necessary.

 

[Topbodz]

I know i am going to get a lot of flack of this. But here is my OPINION. Turn the clock back to before O2 cleaning was required for only ">40%". The only cleaning needed for air was no particulate and oil slick and trash. If a tank had no oil in it you tipped tha tank upside down and it was now clean. I am speeking very basically". O2 < 40 WAS TO BE TREATED LIKE AIR. I think > 60 was to be treated like pure O2. Safety buffer lowered it to >40. That accompdated noaa 2 and up to 40%.

Cleaning for > 40 (treat like 100%o2) brought into play a lot of higher standards to satisfy the O2 clean statement. Any thing in contact with the gas was to be cleaned to o2 standards.

Example non o2 cleaning and inspection for valves meant r/r orings and remove debris. For O2 cleaning it involves ultrasound cleaning. hydrocarbon residue testing ect. For the cylinders, the same (generaly speaking) applies as well. Lots of tumbling and cleaners involved removal on non o2 compliant lub's ect. The process in not rocket science but it is also not the same as a cleaning for standard air use. The clean for O2 like JAX has stated is to allow enriched mixes to be put into cylendars with out exposing the cylendar to o2 concentrations exceedung "40%" makinig it ACCEPTABLE to fill tanks with nitrox without the pure O2 hazzards. BTW new tanks as far as I know all come new with the sticker "Sutable for use up to 40% O@ without O2 service cleaning"from the factory.

Hope this helps. You can look at Vance Harlows book Oxygen Hacker for more details relating to thee O2 cleaning Process.


Once again i am speaking on the most basic level in regard to o2 cleaning.

So it stand to reason that we don't need a sticker that's punched out for premix up to 40%.
Either the tank is cleaned for o2 service and the sticker says so, or lds' should know that its either air or premix up to 40%...
Does that sound about right?

 

[Topbodz]

Why would you catch flack for that? You're pretty much right on the money except you left out the part about the money! I was recently quoted $35 to oxygen clean my valves after I already cleaned them..... It's not rocket science but I don't have the stickers and cards to attest to the cleaning to this particular LDS' satisfaction. FWIW they would sell me a "new" valve for just $4 more than the quoted cleaning price. Now I know you have to assume that average Joe isn't "Super Tech" and therefore not qualified to service his/her own gear but I am a Maintenance Technician for machines and devices that require exponentually more precision and and attention to detail. I do have a "gas blender" card but don't yet have the PSI card to satisfy the requirement to do what I am well qualified to do. I am reasonably certain that I am not unique but I am frustrated by LDSs that make up law or clearly mis-interpret actual law for the purpose of selling gear and services that are not necessary.

I think a lot of LDS don't have a clue, other than they wanna make money.
Yo don't hav eot be Einstein to clean a tank. You do have to have a tumbler, a ultrasonic cleaner and the right cleaners (even if it is dish liquid) gotta have clean air to dry the tank so it won't re-contaminated and need to replace all o rings with Viton o rings.... the equipment is a bit costly. and you should have been trained in doing this...
I could see 20 bucks + the valve kit for servicing & cleaning the valve.

 

[akdeepdiver]

I just would like to point out one small thing. The 40% O2 cleaning "rule" that a lot of shops quote acctually come from a older OSHA regulation for the commerical dive industry and not the recreational. It states that any equipment used in commercial operation be cleaned when it is exposed to O2 percentages above 40%. This has been bastardized for the recreational industry by shops for many years. In fact, a lot of government organizations (NOAA, NASA, US Navy) and private enterprised (CGA) recomend O2 cleaning at lower precentages than this.

 

[NAM001]

for the most part i agree with you. once you put grade E in the tank, by theory you dont put nitrox in it any more. the sticker tells the lds not to fill unless you have hyperfiltered "E" air or better. the air inppection sticker says grade e is ok for fill.

 

[NAM001]

absolutely once again in my opinion,,,,,,,,,,,,, the feds wrote law/regulations to say that standards would be that what is recommended by cga and others. That put cga and others on the hook for being sued. to prevent that they lowered the recommendaton for o2 cleaning to the 23 % figure. that was justified by saying that 23% gas could be made from partial presure filling as as such any cylendar with >23 must be o2 cleaned. hog wash in my opinion. psi training adheres very strictly to this. once the lawyers got involved... well you know. and so follows the insurance companies requirements to any shop owner.

 

[NAM001]

you should find some to give you the psi course. it is worth the money. i just completed my recert last month. things hve changed a bit over the 3 tears since i was originally certed. in many areas the psi/pci folks take the most concervitive position on many things. for instance.

thou shalt not over fill tanks. regs say do not overfill past working presure at sea level and i think 60 degrees . so if it is 90 degrees you can fill to working presure plus apx. 150# for the temp offset. not allowed for psi. must be concervitive. makes one wokder why the burst disk for. they even have the math to prove there is no appreciative gain in over filling.;

Why would you catch flack for that? You're pretty much right on the money except you left out the part about the money! I was recently quoted $35 to oxygen clean my valves after I already cleaned them..... It's not rocket science but I don't have the stickers and cards to attest to the cleaning to this particular LDS' satisfaction. FWIW they would sell me a "new" valve for just $4 more than the quoted cleaning price. Now I know you have to assume that average Joe isn't "Super Tech" and therefore not qualified to service his/her own gear but I am a Maintenance Technician for machines and devices that require exponentually more precision and and attention to detail. I do have a "gas blender" card but don't yet have the PSI card to satisfy the requirement to do what I am well qualified to do. I am reasonably certain that I am not unique but I am frustrated by LDSs that make up law or clearly mis-interpret actual law for the purpose of selling gear and services that are not necessary.