Video: SCUBA Failure at 80 Feet, Yesterday

[Deep South Divers]

You see nothing wrong at all?

1. 13 year-old at 80-something feet. This is at least against agency recommendations and is likely dangerous to adolescent physiology.
2. DD is totally task loaded.
3. DD is lacking in situational awareness, probably because of #2. He is aware that there is a problem when the hose bursts, but is unsure of which hose, unable to perform the proper shutdown, or even discern if it is his own gear that has the issue.
4. DD is incapable of handling on his own an emergency such as an LP hose failure at depth. His buddy must resolve the issue for him. It is unclear whether this is because he is incapable of reaching his own valve on the afflicted tank, or if he simply doesn't know what the issue is in the first place. Both seem to be an issue.
5. DD is a regular proponent of solo diving, which leads one to wonder how he would have handled this situation had he not had a buddy with him at the time.
6. DD and his buddy error in their communication after the shutdown, leading him to switch to the inop gas supply.
7. DD did not end the dive when one of his gas supplies became inop. If he didn't need it in the first place, then why is it there?
8. Killing fish on already underpopulated reef.
9. Using devices that by design "hook" and further damage an already damaged reef. If he's on a drift dive, then drift...
10. Posting a video and becoming angry and lashing out at those that offer an opinion that he doesn't like.
11. Calling people names and asking them to leave when his angry rant does not change the opinion of the other posters.
12. Threatening to place other posters on the "ignore" list, and then not keeping his word. Do it or don't - but don't threaten.
13. Obscuring the points of other poster's posts by focusing - angrily - on whether or not spearfishing is ethical... Then pretending that the other poster has an opposing viewpoint.
14. Starting another thread of a similar name with a similar topic to avoid the opinion that this dive could have gone a lot better.

...That's just off the top of my head. Do you not see any of these?

 

[Tao of the Dive]

(it almost appears you're dog piling)

How does one person dogpile? It would appear that DSD is posting his opinion, citing points of reference from the video, and generally trying to be polite about it. There are not a multitude of others posting similar opinions, "piling" into the argument. For the purpose of transparency, I subscribe to DSD's arguments against DD's task loading. But I have refrained from posting, because DSD is articulating his concerns well enough, and I felt it would be unsporting for someone with the exact same views to post their concerns ad nauseum. My sole purpose for joining this discussion is to make it clear nobody else with a firm understanding of the term "dogpile," sees is the way you do.

 

[Splitlip]

How does one person dogpile? It would appear that DSD is posting his opinion, citing points of reference from the video, and generally trying to be polite about it. There are not a multitude of others posting similar opinions, "piling" into the argument. For the purpose of transparency, I subscribe to DSD's arguments against DD's task loading. But I have refrained from posting, because DSD is articulating his concerns well enough, and I felt it would be unsporting for someone with the exact same views to post their concerns ad nauseum. My sole purpose for joining this discussion is to make it clear nobody else with a firm understanding of the term "dogpile," sees is the way you do.

Well I suppose dig piling is not the right term.

A couple years ago somebody posted about keeping plastic trash bags in pockets to use as emergency signaling devices. Shortly thereafter a couple guys took every opportunity to make negative posts about trash bags. The mods came down on the activity. I know,because I got a pm from Net Doc just for LOL-ing.

Post number 62 above and in response to ckeene9's post to no one in particular about hunting, DSD takes the opportunity to once more repeat his issues with DD and his video. And then I presented another opportunity with my post.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

How does one person dogpile? It would appear that DSD is posting his opinion, citing points of reference from the video, and generally trying to be polite about it. There are not a multitude of others posting similar opinions, "piling" into the argument. For the purpose of transparency, I subscribe to DSD's arguments against DD's task loading. But I have refrained from posting, because DSD is articulating his concerns well enough, and I felt it would be unsporting for someone with the exact same views to post their concerns ad nauseum. My sole purpose for joining this discussion is to make it clear nobody else with a firm understanding of the term "dogpile," sees is the way you do.

Task loading? Maybe it IS a handful to work a hand held camera and a pole spear, but where we dive we really don't have that much choice. Sometimes I make the kid pull the float and work the reel, but then he has a tough time spearfishing.

I normally dive solo and during lobster season, I will be carrying a reef hook attached to a reel which is attached to a float. I will also have a light, a catch bag, two knives, a snorkel, a marine radio in a pressure proof vessel, 2 smb's and possibly a third rigged with a stringer to send fish to the surface if sharks become an issue and I will be carrying a pole spear, a lobster catch net and a speargun and sometimes I am riding a scooter too, but I always have a pony bottle. Sometimes I might even be wearing a Go Pro under my hood...

I did not have a scooter, a lobster net or a speargun on the dive in this video, so I really was not task loaded. Possibly it looks like a lotta stuff, but it's really not unusual at all.

 

[danvolker]

You see nothing wrong at all?

1. 13 year-old at 80-something feet. This is at least against agency recommendations and is likely dangerous to adolescent physiology.

No medical science supports this. In all probability, with the vastly superior VO2 max of an athletic kid his age, he is probably as clean 30 minutes after a 50 minute dive at 60 feet, as 80 percent of divers are after 4 hours following the same dive. In other words, he is less effected by offgassing issues than most divers.

2. DD is totally task loaded......

Ok, here you are understandibly confused by that which is normal for dumpster diver..he is equally task loaded while on the surface....

3. DD is lacking in situational awareness, probably because of #2. He is aware that there is a problem when the hose bursts, but is unsure of which hose, unable to perform the proper shutdown, or even discern if it is his own gear that has the issue.

He is not in doubles, so there is no likelihood he would ever consider shutting down the valve...what he is trained to do is use a pony, or to buddy breathe, or to do a free ascent--he is a freediver after all, and at 80 feet this is as easy for him as it is for a normal diver from 12 feet. He was in no immediate danger, and you witnessed him not having any real concern, which would be expected given the options he still had.

4. DD is incapable of handling on his own an emergency such as an LP hose failure at depth. His buddy must resolve the issue for him. It is unclear whether this is because he is incapable of reaching his own valve on the afflicted tank, or if he simply doesn't know what the issue is in the first place. Both seem to be an issue.

I might say that if I was pissed at him, but I don't think he felt he "had" to do much of anything. He saw the kid coming to him, and was still breathing just fine. Since he was not seeing the hose or valve leaking, why not let his buddy have a look? Again, he was breathing just fine. The pony is double redundancy, since the buddy ( kid ) is the real back up air source.

5. DD is a regular proponent of solo diving, which leads one to wonder how he would have handled this situation had he not had a buddy with him at the time.

My guess is he would have breathed off the main tank as long as it had gas, and begun his ascent. He then had both pony or free ascent, both easy. With the kid there, he had zero urgency, and a fish in sight...
I don't like solo diving, so I am not supporting this as a plan, but I also know that on a dive like this, the scenario is very simple to deal with for a scuba diver with good freediving skills.

6. DD and his buddy error in their communication after the shutdown, leading him to switch to the inop gas supply.

Good learning event for them. The buddy breathing was always an option. Next time they will handle something like this better, due to this event...if something this rare ever happens to them again.

7. DD did not end the dive when one of his gas supplies became inop. If he didn't need it in the first place, then why is it there?

Each of us tends to wear the configuration we normally wear, on all our dives....if DD usually dives solo, then there is no surprise about his keeping his pony. I don't like the configuration---I would rather see it stgage slung where it is easy to see the reg and valve....but the fact remains, the kid was his main backup , not the pony, on this dive....
I'd say he should be all set up DIR, but then what would we do when he dives the way he likes to, instead of the way we like? Given that, I'd just as soon he dives his own rig, and does it his way

8. Killing fish on already underpopulated reef.

These reefs vary enormously day to day..one day later it may have been loaded....one hour later it may have been loaded...5 hours earlier it might have been deserted. Sometimes the fish move on and off the reef with the tide and the nutrient flow/feeding zones...

9. Using devices that by design "hook" and further damage an already damaged reef. If he's on a drift dive, then drift...

Hooking to dead rock or sand by a rock is normal behavior by old timer drift divers, when they want to stop. We have been on many dives with marine biologists, and never seen one concerned about the effects of such hooking off on non-live areas. If he had hooked a sponge or some coral, I would be blasting him just as you would.


DD will give you and me many future opportunities to blast him, usually over some tropical collecting nonsense, or devils advocate silyness on solo diving. In this particular video though, I think I would rather see the good in it.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Thanks Dan..

If I were solo, I would have immediately popped the waist band on the BC, popped the cross chest strap and pulled the tank down over my head (and hope that I remember to vent it before I do so). At that point, I would have been able to see what the problem was and take necessary action.

Certainly a slung pony is safer than back mounted and this incident provides a very vivid example of it. If the O-ring had popped on a slung bottle, it would have been off in 2 seconds and there would have been no confusion over which tank had a problem. Plus if slung, I could turn the valve on and off and get some usable air from a slung bottle (if there were a true emergency). I readily admit i sacrifice a degree of safety for perceived convenience...of course you know all this already.

As for my inability to deal with the problem.. My frst concern was my son's gear, after it was determined that he was fine, the situation became "something cool to film". Of course I could have handled it myself, but why not stress out my kid and see what he is made of and allow him an opportunity to respond in "a stressful emergency"???? It is excellent practice for him and honestly, why not allow your buddy to help you out when a problem arises on a dive. Everyone agrees he did fine..

Similarly, the issue with the eel, after I initially escaped being bitten under the rock, I could have simply grabbed his speargun and beat the crap out of the eel, but again this was another opportunity for him to demonstrate that he can handle himself underwater and deal with problem marine life. He now knows to jab the eel early (and often if need be).

Hell, on a dive last winter he had to use the pole spear on a reef shark, that was bugging us and it happened so fast I never knew he poked the shark until he told me on the car ride home. I did notice the white marks on the side of the shark.. It took some major jabbing by me and a third buddy with a speargun before he left us alone for good.

 

[Splitlip]

Thanks Dan..

If I were solo, I would have immediately popped the waist band on the BC, popped the cross chest strap and pulled the tank down over my head (and hope that I remember to vent it before I do so). At that point, I would have been able to see what the problem was and take necessary action.

Certainly a slung pony is safer than back mounted and this incident provides a very vivid example of it. If the O-ring had popped on a slung bottle, it would have been off in 2 seconds and there would have been no confusion over which tank had a problem. Plus if slung, I could turn the valve on and off and get some usable air from a slung bottle (if there were a true emergency). I readily admit i sacrifice a degree of safety for perceived convenience...of course you know all this already.

As for my inability to deal with the problem.. My frst concern was my son's gear, after it was determined that he was fine, the situation became "something cool to film". Of course I could have handled it myself, but why not stress out my kid and see what he is made of and allow him an opportunity to respond in "a stressful emergency"???? It is excellent practice for him and honestly, why not allow your buddy to help you out when a problem arises on a dive. Everyone agrees he did fine..

Similarly, the issue with the eel, after I initially escaped being bitten under the rock, I could have simply grabbed his speargun and beat the crap out of the eel, but again this was another opportunity for him to demonstrate that he can handle himself underwater and deal with problem marine life. He now knows to jab the eel early (and often if need be).

Hell, on a dive last winter he had to use the pole spear on a reef shark, that was bugging us and it happened so fast I never knew he poked the shark until he told me on the car ride home. I did notice the white marks on the side of the shark.. It took some major jabbing by me and a third buddy with a speargun before he left us alone for good.

You and your young man were great. No reason to even think twice. I'm trying to sweep your vids into something I can share with my 19 year old girl.

 

[Tao of the Dive]

Task loading? Maybe it IS a handful to work a hand held camera and a pole spear, but where we dive we really don't have that much choice. Sometimes I make the kid pull the float and work the reel, but then he has a tough time spearfishing.

I normally dive solo and during lobster season, I will be carrying a reef hook attached to a reel which is attached to a float. I will also have a light, a catch bag, two knives, a snorkel, a marine radio in a pressure proof vessel, 2 smb's and possibly a third rigged with a stringer to send fish to the surface if sharks become an issue and I will be carrying a pole spear, a lobster catch net and a speargun and sometimes I am riding a scooter too, but I always have a pony bottle. Sometimes I might even be wearing a Go Pro under my hood...

I did not have a scooter, a lobster net or a speargun on the dive in this video, so I really was not task loaded. Possibly it looks like a lotta stuff, but it's really not unusual at all.

Okay, I really do not wish to enter too far into this debate. As I said, I do not want it to appear as though you are being ganged up on or anything. But task loading is a major deal. And while you may have found a comfort zone, it can still be a concern. It can magnify problems within the incident pit, even if you are usually comfortable with how much stuff you take. From my perspective, it is as though you cannot decide if you want to be a tourist or a hunter, and that is not taking into account the plethora of gear you choose or feel you have to carry.

Just using the video as an example, there were two cameras, which I'm not even sure I understand. But using your solo diving gear list as another example; it just feels that you are carrying gear for every possible contingency.

I am beginning to subscribe to Hogarthian thinking as far as my diving goes, and striving for a much more streamlined silhouette. But when you carry everything but the kitchen sink, something is bound to go wrong, something is bound to become entangled. And as we've seen far too often, once you start skirting the edges of that incident pit, you get dragged further and further in, no matter how well trained or well equipped we are or think we are. That is where the concerns that I and DSD seem to share come from. Especially since you follow solo diving principles. While you want to make sure you have everything you need, you must also make sure you are not so severely task loaded that it ends up being the problem. If you feel comfortable with how you dive, then nothing I say or do will change that. But hopefully you've gotten some cause for thought somewhere in these dialogues. That is about all anybody can ask.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Okay, I really do not wish to enter too far into this debate. As I said, I do not want it to appear as though you are being ganged up on or anything. But task loading is a major deal. And while you may have found a comfort zone, it can still be a concern. It can magnify problems within the incident pit, even if you are usually comfortable with how much stuff you take. From my perspective, it is as though you cannot decide if you want to be a tourist or a hunter, and that is not taking into account the plethora of gear you choose or feel you have to carry.

Just using the video as an example, there were two cameras, which I'm not even sure I understand. But using your solo diving gear list as another example; it just feels that you are carrying gear for every possible contingency.

I am beginning to subscribe to Hogarthian thinking as far as my diving goes, and striving for a much more streamlined silhouette. But when you carry everything but the kitchen sink, something is bound to go wrong, something is bound to become entangled. And as we've seen far too often, once you start skirting the edges of that incident pit, you get dragged further and further in, no matter how well trained or well equipped we are or think we are. That is where the concerns that I and DSD seem to share come from. Especially since you follow solo diving principles. While you want to make sure you have everything you need, you must also make sure you are not so severely task loaded that it ends up being the problem. If you feel comfortable with how you dive, then nothing I say or do will change that. But hopefully you've gotten some cause for thought somewhere in these dialogues. That is about all anybody can ask.

I looked hard at the Hog. type of configuration and I emulate the aspects of it that I find value in. Task loading and excessive gear IS an issue. Certainly something to be careful of. Getting tangled is another issue. I've been tangled up literally dozens of time in line and things and have had to remove my scuba unit many, many times. I sometimes wear a BP/W, but lately I've been on a scuba pro Bc kick..

I also forgot another few pieces of gear: I had a whistle and a dive alert on an extra lp hose and a lobster guage somewhere ... LOL


I've been diving a long time. I've seen several people die and bad accidents and many close calls. I don't carry a spare mask or a spare computer or wet notes or a jon line or a second light (unless at night and then I have 3 often) or a long hose or a barrel clip on my primary reg hose .. many people think all these things are needed.

The only thing I have learned from this thread is the comment TSM made....kinda obvious, but relevant and not something I've really considered... "us tech divers kinda figure out what the guy is breathing from before we shut it down"... or something along those lines...

I assure you I am not task loaded with my configuration. But I am curious, what exactly am I carrying that gives you such heartburn? I have no problem with reasonable criticism, heaven knows I can dish it out. Do I look burdened to you?

It sounds like you view this dive as a wake up call or a scare? I accidentally forgot to shut the camera down when I threw it on the deck after the dive. This is what it captured.. just the usual BS and fun and joking around ....

[video=youtube_share;QJsBZUsLnnk]http://youtu.be/QJsBZUsLnnk[/video]

 

[Deep South Divers]

Task loading? Maybe it IS a handful to work a hand held camera and a pole spear, but where we dive we really don't have that much choice. Sometimes I make the kid pull the float and work the reel, but then he has a tough time spearfishing.

So do you. Add supervising, reef hooking, shooting a camera, shooting another camera, and escaping being chased by a hungry moray, and yes, it is true... There is no attention left to be able to handle an exploded LP hose.

Why can you see that your son is task loaded with only two tasks, but you can not see that you are overloaded with seven or eight?

I normally dive solo and during lobster season, I will be carrying a reef hook attached to a reel which is attached to a float. I will also have a light, a catch bag, two knives, a snorkel, a marine radio in a pressure proof vessel, 2 smb's and possibly a third rigged with a stringer to send fish to the surface if sharks become an issue and I will be carrying a pole spear, a lobster catch net and a speargun and sometimes I am riding a scooter too, but I always have a pony bottle. Sometimes I might even be wearing a Go Pro under my hood...

...And so the logic is, "I am normally task loaded even worse, so what's the big deal?" DD, I don't have a problem with you, even if you do get angry and tell me to go away and call me names. I just can't imagine that being this task loaded is very much fun... Or safe.

What if your buddy had had this exploded LP hose problem? Which hand would you have donated a reg with? The one holding the spear, the one holding the light, the one holding the camera, the one holding the scooter, the one holding the catch bag, the one holding the reel and dive flag, or the one holding the other camera? Yes, I know that your gear is strapped to you or tied off somehow, or that you were in water with a bottom, so you could have ditched it... But my point is that - especially as a freediver, can you not see the value in simplicity? It is said that every thing you own also owns you...

I did not have a scooter, a lobster net or a speargun on the dive in this video, so I really was not task loaded. Possibly it looks like a lotta stuff, but it's really not unusual at all.

Just because it's common for you doesn't mean that you're not task loaded. Is it possible that you are commonly task loaded?

No medical science supports this. In all probability, with the vastly superior VO2 max of an athletic kid his age, he is probably as clean 30 minutes after a 50 minute dive at 60 feet, as 80 percent of divers are after 4 hours following the same dive. In other words, he is less effected by offgassing issues than most divers.

There is another thread that DD started regarding this video - in it, there is a link to Doc Vikingo's medical opinion on it and lots of medical science supporting the notion that adolescent bodies might not handle dive physiology the same way that adult bodies do. For this reason, all agencies restrict age and or depth regarding diving. With your logic, adolescents should be capable of deeper, longer dives with less surface interval... And that simply is not supported at all by the science or the age/depth restrictions offered by the dive industry agencies.

Ok, here you are understandibly confused by that which is normal for dumpster diver..he is equally task loaded while on the surface....

I don't relate to that humor, since I do not know DD on the surface or below... But I can assure you that I am not "confused" by anything that DD has said or done regarding this video and this thread. If I become confused, I will ask for clarification.

He is not in doubles, so there is no likelihood he would ever consider shutting down the valve...what he is trained to do is use a pony, or to buddy breathe, or to do a free ascent--he is a freediver after all, and at 80 feet this is as easy for him as it is for a normal diver from 12 feet.

I have understood him to say that he is a freediver and that he was also a commercial diver, even though he ignored my questions about his job description and employment. Later he said that I called him a "liar," although I never said or wrote that. I simply asked him some questions and told him it was hard to believe, which is true. Had he offered some credentials or mentioned years worked or for whom or where, I might have been more apt to believe him.

I mean, if someone asked me for whom or where, I would simply tell them... It's not like I have some ulterior motive for keeping it a secret...

The same goes with the freediving comment - as if it is relevant in this conversation. Freedivers are not breathing compressed gasses at depth - that is, they have no worries about tissue loading, barotrauma, or lung overexpansion injuries. Becoming a "freediver" at 80 feet of depth after even a few minutes of breathing compressed gas is vastly different than doing a breath hold from 0-80-0, physiologically speaking. His abilities as a freediver - assuming that they are real - do not enable him to kick to the surface, for example, as a freediver would. His limitations should be the same as any other diver's limitations - 30 fpm or 60 fpm, tops, depending on the agency and training that he was taught.

A freediving commercial scuba diver would know this. Freediving skills or not, no matter how good, do not exempt him from the physiological effects of breathing compressed gasses at depth.

He was in no immediate danger, and you witnessed him not having any real concern, which would be expected given the options he still had.

Actually, what I witnessed was him screaming, "What is it!!!?" after the "boom" and his dive buddy hightailing it back to donate. I also observed him ditching a working reg for a nonworking reg. I do not agree that he "had no real concern." To the contrary, I saw him freaking out quite a bit, which, it turned out, wasn't necessary. It might have been had the problematic LP hose been on his primary reg, and not the backup system attached to his pony bottle.

Hooking to dead rock or sand by a rock is normal behavior by old timer drift divers, when they want to stop.

Yes, I am familiar.

Originally, Coca-Cola had cocaine in it and was sold as a remedy for all ails. In the 1950's, cigarettes were commonly thought to be healthy, as they provided relaxation and a "break." So? I thought in 2012 we had learned a few things... Including not to touch the reef. Not even with a big metal hook.

We have been on many dives with marine biologists, and never seen one concerned about the effects of such hooking off on non-live areas. If he had hooked a sponge or some coral, I would be blasting him just as you would.

There is no such thing as a "non-live area" on a reef, and if you want to stop, duck behind a rock or an outcropping. Or simply face into the current and kick. There's not enough current there in that video to make that impossible. Do I really need to argue not to touch the reef?

DD will give you and me many future opportunities to blast him, usually over some tropical collecting nonsense, or devils advocate silyness on solo diving.

...So I have heard. And read. The scary thing to me is that he is the example for that 13 year-old... And a frequent poster here on this board. What if a new diver comes here and reads his stuff and thinks that deep air, task loading, solo diving is a good idea?

If I were solo, I would have immediately popped the waist band on the BC, popped the cross chest strap and pulled the tank down over my head (and hope that I remember to vent it before I do so). At that point, I would have been able to see what the problem was and take necessary action.

Certainly a slung pony is safer than back mounted and this incident provides a very vivid example of it. If the O-ring had popped on a slung bottle, it would have been off in 2 seconds and there would have been no confusion over which tank had a problem. Plus if slung, I could turn the valve on and off and get some usable air from a slung bottle (if there were a true emergency). I readily admit i sacrifice a degree of safety for perceived convenience...of course you know all this already.

As for my inability to deal with the problem.. My frst concern was my son's gear, after it was determined that he was fine, the situation became "something cool to film". Of course I could have handled it myself, but why not stress out my kid and see what he is made of and allow him an opportunity to respond in "a stressful emergency"???? It is excellent practice for him and honestly, why not allow your buddy to help you out when a problem arises on a dive. Everyone agrees he did fine..

Similarly, the issue with the eel, after I initially escaped being bitten under the rock, I could have simply grabbed his speargun and beat the crap out of the eel, but again this was another opportunity for him to demonstrate that he can handle himself underwater and deal with problem marine life. He now knows to jab the eel early (and often if need be).

Hell, on a dive last winter he had to use the pole spear on a reef shark, that was bugging us and it happened so fast I never knew he poked the shark until he told me on the car ride home. I did notice the white marks on the side of the shark.. It took some major jabbing by me and a third buddy with a speargun before he left us alone for good.

You know, in thousands of dives all over the world - including in this same area that you were diving in - I have never once experienced that problem. I have had to keep aggressive alligators off of my divers, but I have never once ever had a reef shark NOT leave me alone. I have never even had to poke at one.

In fact, I know many places in the world where they try very hard to attract them. It takes quite a bit to even get them to come within sight, and years of training to get them to come into sight reliably. Perhaps you could teach all of us how to attract sharks.