Very interested in BP/w. Confused/help

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Cold water new england diver here. I dive trilaminate drysuit heavy undergarments.

I like my stainless backplate it is heavy for travel but I have done it.

I use a single piece of webbing harness no fancy pads or anything with exposure protection you don't need them (my complete personal opinion is the pads are just manufacturers trying to upsale).

I also have a halycon because I got a really good deal on it "used" (two dives). I've never had another brand so I can't comment on them but my halycon is 12 years old with no problem.

I use a 40 pound wing but I could get away with a slightly smaller one.
 
I used to use a SS plate w/ drysuit, fleese and no weights, but switched to an AL plate so I could put 4 lbs on my waist @ the BP. I was top-heavy...at least that's what I believed.
 
Thanks everyone. I learned some things I was thinking about incorrectly. My only thought I need to work out yet is if I should get a wing with over 30# lift, because If I use a steel HP 100 and SS backplate, I can then only put around 14 #'s of lead on the back plate, leaving any more lead I need on a harness. Do I need to add regulator weight as well?

I don't want to have much weight in a harness, in case I had to swim it up, although I guess I could ditch some weight if needed. I would rather have a little extra lift than be marginal. However, over 30#'s for a wing cuts way back on options.

Probably still overthinking things.
 
If you have access to a pool do a quick assessment of buoyancy, first yourself, if you exhale do you sink? If not grab a 1lb and see if you sink, increase until you know your buoyancy, next put on the dry suit, no undies add weight until you can sink with all of the air out of the suit (valve open and vent the rest with the neck seal if needed) now you know how much buoyancy you will have on the surface even if your suit floods. My black ice compressed 7mm takes about 20 lb to sink for a reference, add about 3 to 5 % for salt water but that’s where fine tuning thing comes in.

I use 35lb wings in cold water, a VDH or a Dive Rite voyager XT a Stainless Freedom plate with a rail (total nearly 6 lb) and I capture 8lb more under the rail I more or less 16lb more to help stay warm and keep the squeeze off, I dive steel 100’s cold. For warm water I use a 1mm skin, aluminum FP and an 18lb wing from VDH I add 4lb to make up for the gas used, if I used the SS plate I would not add any weight.
 
I'm diving a 30lb wing, ss backplate and using 6kg total lead, so about 13 'n a bit lbs.

That's with a wetsuit and shorty. I'm 5'11" and about 180lbs. Male. 12L steel tank.

The beauty of the bp/w setup for me is the effortless trim (I've got this dialled in over a few dives) and ease of customisation.
 
Hi Tom, welcome to ScubaBoard.

Regarding wing size, rjack321 and Dubious have already taken a crack at explaining this. Sometimes hearing the same thing in different words can be helpful, so I'll throw in my 2 cents in the bucket.

Your wing needs to be large enough to achieve two things, and two things only. (1) To compensate for the maximum difference in your buoyancy throughout the dive, (2) Be able to float on the surface in case you want to remove it in the water, or maybe toss it into the water and jump in after it.

(2) is easy -- like rjack says, you need a wing whose lift exceeds everything negative on your rig. That would be the backplate, tank, any attached lead, and conceivably gear (like if you have a super heavy can light). A typical steel backplate is -5 lbs or so, full typical steel tank -10 lbs or so. I also like to put 4 lbs of lead in trim pockets. So for (2), I need about a 20-lb wing. If you hate heavy weight belts / harnesses and want to stick it all on the rig, OK, fine. A 30-lb wing supports roughly 15 pounds of lead, a 40-lb could do around 25 lbs of lead, and so on.

(1) is the one that people often are confused by. It has absolutely zero to do with your body's density, the amount of lead you're carrying, the material of your tank, the material of your backplate, or anything else. The big ones that do matter are the volume of gas in the tank, and the volume of the gas in the materials of your suit.

For tanks: At the beginning of your dive, your tank is full, so an HP100 contains 100 cubic feet of air, which weighs about 8 pounds. . Suppose you were to completely empty the tank during your dive (not a great idea of course, but suppose). At the end of the dive, the tank will therefore be 8 pounds lighter, so your wing needs at least 8 pounds of lift to compensate for this difference.
Further reading on tanks: Here is a chart of the weight of air, here is a chart the buoyancy of many common tanks.

For exposure suit: At the surface, my thick wetsuit needs roughly 16 lbs of lead to sink it, so we can say that it is 16 lbs positive. As I descend, the gas trapped in the materials of the suit compresses from the pressure. If I were to go super super deep, that buoyancy would go close to zero. So my wing would need an additional 16 lbs of lift to compensate for exposure gear. In the worst-case scenario in my wetsuit, I therefore need a minimum of 24 lbs of lift. In fact, my I have a 32-lb wing, which works just fine. I also dove it in warm water earlier this year, and it worked great.

The material in my trilam drysuit is pretty much neutral, so I could probably get by with a smaller wing. Since you have a neoprene drysuit, the materials will be somewhat positive, but certainly less than a thick wetsuit. So again, the 30-lb wing range is probably just fine, and is a good rule of thumb for all single-tank diving. In warm water where you typically have smaller tanks and tiny or no exposure gear, 15-20 lbs is common. 40-pound wings and larger would make sense if you either had a super duper thick wetsuit (like 2 layers of 7mm, thick gloves/boots/hood), or if you had multiple tanks (adding another HP100 would add another 8 lbs of gas to compensate for), or as mentioned above, if you just want to put a s***load of lead on the rig.

All of the above only works if you are "properly weighted." Which of course, different folks have different views on. What I mean by it is, you are neutrally buoyant near the surface with an empty tank. Because that is the most buoyant you'll ever be, if you are neutral there, then you know that no matter your depth or amount of gas remaining in the tank, you will be able to achieve neutral buoyancy. If you are positive near the surface with an empty tank and empty wing, then you need more lead. If you are negative near the surface with an empty tank, then it is safe to remove some lead. 40 pounds is a LOT of lead, I suggest that you do a weight check at the end of a dive (so that your tank will be near-empty). Just completely dump your BC/wing, and see if you are able to hold a shallow stop. If you sink, give some lead to your buddy or set it on the ground. Keep removing lead until you're neutral. Now you have the perfect amount of weight. As one point of reference, I'm 5'11, 165lbs, dive in 50 degree water, and have been using about 20 lbs of lead in my drysuit / SS backplate / steel single tank. I intend to try a little bit less lead next dive, and expect I'll end up with no more than 16 lbs when I have it dialed in.

Best of luck, hope this helps!

Depending on how well you like your dive buddy, you might want to have a bit of additional lift to give them a hand if they get into trouble
 
Depending on how well you like your dive buddy, you might want to have a bit of additional lift to give them a hand if they get into trouble

I see this issue raised very infrequently. From my perspective, it is an important consideration. We have a lot of people trying to minimize their wing capacity, we have a lot of people advocating for little or ZERO ditchable lead. What happens when one of "these people" has a BC failure or just really screws up and takes too much lead?

Being able to grab them and get them started toward the surface with a minimal amount of exertion is an important consideration for me. Having a modest amount of excess capacity provides a safety margin.
 
I see this issue raised very infrequently. From my perspective, it is an important consideration. We have a lot of people trying to minimize their wing capacity, we have a lot of people advocating for little or ZERO ditchable lead. What happens when one of "these people" has a BC failure or just really screws up and takes too much lead?

Being able to grab them and get them started toward the surface with a minimal amount of exertion is an important consideration for me. Having a modest amount of excess capacity provides a safety margin.

Depending on how well you like your dive buddy, you might want to have a bit of additional lift to give them a hand if they get into trouble

Good points. My dive buddy is my son, who I love to death, and was the one who asked me to be his dive partner and got me into this awesome sport a little over 2 years ago. I am thinking a few extra pounds lift might be worth it. I had been thinking the VDH 35# wing, but Bryan isn't sure when he will have them in stock.
 
If you have access to a pool do a quick assessment of buoyancy, first yourself, if you exhale do you sink? If not grab a 1lb and see if you sink, increase until you know your buoyancy, next put on the dry suit, no undies add weight until you can sink with all of the air out of the suit (valve open and vent the rest with the neck seal if needed) now you know how much buoyancy you will have on the surface even if your suit floods. My black ice compressed 7mm takes about 20 lb to sink for a reference, add about 3 to 5 % for salt water but that’s where fine tuning thing comes in.

I use 35lb wings in cold water, a VDH or a Dive Rite voyager XT a Stainless Freedom plate with a rail (total nearly 6 lb) and I capture 8lb more under the rail I more or less 16lb more to help stay warm and keep the squeeze off, I dive steel 100’s cold. For warm water I use a 1mm skin, aluminum FP and an 18lb wing from VDH I add 4lb to make up for the gas used, if I used the SS plate I would not add any weight.

Thanks Lexvil, Unfortunately there are no pools available any where near by. I may have to drive somewhere to test this.
 
I see this issue raised very infrequently. From my perspective, it is an important consideration. We have a lot of people trying to minimize their wing capacity, we have a lot of people advocating for little or ZERO ditchable lead. What happens when one of "these people" has a BC failure or just really screws up and takes too much lead?

Being able to grab them and get them started toward the surface with a minimal amount of exertion is an important consideration for me. Having a modest amount of excess capacity provides a safety margin.
We are taking about drysuit diving. So between you and your buddy, you have 4 options for increasing buoyancy. That should be sufficient safety margin.

I can understand the attraction of "little bit more" thinking. A little bit bigger wing, a few extra pounds of weight, a little bit larger tank, a second dsmb. But this quickly become self-defeating. The point of gear optimization is that it increases safety. Less drag, better trim, etc. means you will be less tired and have more gas for any situation you run into. And less fatigue means better decision making which helps avoid problems in the first place.
 

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