Vacation Tech Divers

[Chatterton]

One other interesting thing to note.

I spoke to the dive operator (since I know them) and was just chatting...

They said how the other divers were "accomplished" and "good divers"

The operators don't usually know if the divers are really - not so good - since they don't always get in the water on these kinds of dives. The diver goes down. They come up - alive - and not bent... they're good divers.

This kind of relates to a topic that John Chatterton and I were talking about a couple of weeks ago, which is "accomplished bad divers"... People with poor skills, who have survived years and years of diving. Maybe even just by dumb luck. They have enough technical knowledge to make them dangerous, but somehow have eluded accident - over and over again. Then they think that they're good divers because they've done the dives and lived...

Diving is supposed to be fun. The average diver probably makes a dozen dives a year and is happy to dive conditions that meet their experience. For most that means no deco, no overhead? Some divers want more. They want to dive deeper, stay longer, and go farther. This is human nature, and this is okay.

However going deeper, longer, farther necessitates a greater commitment of resources. It takes a higher level of training, more water time, acquiring experience, and additional equipment with increased maintenance. All this requires commiting one's time and money. Some people are prepared for this, and others are not.

As an alternative, you can do exactly what the Vacation Divers have been described as doing. They do not commit themselves to minimizing any of the inherent risk in making the technical dives they are attempting. In essence, they are not managing the risk at all. They are just jumping in the water.

We learn things on every dive, whether we want to or not?? What lessons did the Vacation Divers learn? Judging by the high fives, they learned that they really know what they are doing!!! They learned that they are "good" divers, as the captain would call them. Their survival alone really proves nothing. They are, in reality, Accomplished Bad Divers. They are not good at diving, just lucky at surviving.

This is a tough cycle to break? They acquire more experience at diving bad, and therefore have greater confidence in their abilities and proof that their philosophy is spot on. The fact that they keep getting back on the boat proves that they are right and the rest of us are all wrong. The stupid rules do not apply to them, with the fact that they are alive, as proof.

I have known a bunch of these guys over the years. Unfortunately, these divers often terminate their dive careers with unhappy endings. I could go on and on with a bunch of horror stories, many of which you guys have already heard, but that is boring.

This situation is bad for diving and our community. They undermine the good work of divers, educators, and other industry professionals. It is hard for boat Captains, Instructors, and Divemasters to offer solutions to these situations as they are not always aware of who the problems are?

I don't have a solution, just an observation. Sorry?


Cheers

JC

 

[deepstops]

Don't worry Rick, we have many locals that demonstrate the problems you've described and they're not on vacation.

It's for this reason, I will only do tech trips on six-pack boats where I can load the boat people I know and trust.

 

[JeffG]

"accomplished bad divers"... People with poor skills, who have survived years and years of diving. Maybe even just by dumb luck. They have enough technical knowledge to make them dangerous, but somehow have eluded accident - over and over again. Then they think that they're good divers because they've done the dives and lived...

and some become Tech dive instructors.

 

[DeepSeaExplorer]

I am all for tech divers taking a vacation.

If I do a tech dive while on vacation, does that make me a vacation tech diver too?

This discussion comes up a lot in cave diving. Those that don't live in cave country sometimes take heat for it, but there are a lot of good vacation cave divers out there too.

 

[Rick Inman]

If I do a tech dive while on vacation, does that make me a vacation tech diver too?

This discussion comes up a lot in cave diving. Those that don't live in cave country sometimes take heat for it, but there are a lot of good vacation cave divers out there too.

It's not doing tech dives while on vacation that I'm talking about (heck, I'm on vacation right now). It's about ONLY doing tech dives while on vacation, in fact only diving at all while on vacation, and letting your skills show it. Like JC said, "...going deeper, longer, farther necessitates a greater commitment of resources."

I did 150 dives last year, about half were deco dives, and only a handful while on vacation. I would suspect that the cave divers you are referring to, who demonstrate quality skills, and dive those caves only while on vacation, also continue to commit their resources (time, training, diving, money) while NOT on vacation as well.

Nothing wrong with that. The issue is safety, and the concern for those who do not commit to the greater training and practice required for these more advanced dives.

I'm all for having a great time while on holiday. I'd just hate to see someone get hurt doing it.

and some become Tech dive instructors.

Shudder....

 

[Mr Carcharodon]

Doesn’t this all boil down to how much risk one is willing to assume? Hopefully your sloppy vacation divers were aware of the risks they were taking. Watching the spectacle in front of you I am sure it was hard to believe they were. But do any of us really know the risks? Since they can do these dives repeatably unharmed it would appear that the risks may be lower than assumed by most of the people here. The probability of DCS, or other adverse outcome, may be low but still unacceptable to most of the posters here because the potential consequences are severe. My understanding is that the US Navy tables were derived from a probabilistic model based on the observation of many thousand dives. I believe they thought that a 1% chance of having any symptoms of DCS was acceptable. Your sloppy divers may be increasing their probability to 2% and those divers with immaculately held stops may have a 0.8% probability (speculation on the numbers based on the Navies and your observations). As a community we could collect the statistics on the results of many dives and see what the real risks are. If we had the numbers your sloppy divers might decide they want to refine their technique. But then it is within the realm of possibility that we would find that holding a stop to a few feet was insignificant compared to the other variables in the dive. Then the practiced divers might turn their focus elsewhere.

These divers may just have decided that the risk is low enough for them to be worth it to do the dive. No one dives with complete safety and judgments on what is acceptable will vary.

 

[texdiveguy]

It's not doing tech dives while on vacation that I'm talking about (heck, I'm on vacation right now). It's about ONLY doing tech dives while on vacation, in fact only diving at all while on vacation, and letting your skills show it. Like JC said, "...going deeper, longer, farther necessitates a greater commitment of resources."

I did 150 dives last year, about half were deco dives, and only a handful while on vacation. I would suspect that the cave divers you are referring to, who demonstrate quality skills, and dive those caves only while on vacation, also continue to commit their resources (time, training, diving, money) while NOT on vacation as well.

Nothing wrong with that. The issue is safety, and the concern for those who do not commit to the greater training and practice required for these more advanced dives.

I'm all for having a great time while on holiday. I'd just hate to see someone get hurt doing it.



Shudder....

The sad thing is there is really nothing we as active divers can do to prevent those vacation only divers from making those dives. We can all only hope this group of divers are in the minority....I truely think most advanced level divers whom are serious about the sport don't fall into this group....granted there are differing degrees of experience and skill in any level of diving....you have beginner Advanced Nitrox divers and beginner Advanced Trimix divers and beginner Full Cave or CCR Mix divers for that matter. Its like anything else we try to learn and master....as you progress through the levels so does ones skill and exposure.....but there will always be the exception...maybe this few divers were just that.

 

[DeepSeaExplorer]

It's not doing tech dives while on vacation that I'm talking about (heck, I'm on vacation right now). It's about ONLY doing tech dives while on vacation, in fact only diving at all while on vacation, and letting your skills show it. Like JC said, "...going deeper, longer, farther necessitates a greater commitment of resources."quote]

I know... I was just kidding...

I see a lot of vacation divers down here both tech and rec so I know what you mean. I was only pointing out that sometimes the shoe is on the other foot, when I go up to cave country some view me as a vacation cave diver because I'm not local. I'd like to think that once they do a dive with me that they might reconsider.

However, everyone has different levels of interest in the different activities they participate in. Often my time is split between multiple things, which doesn't allow me to have the same dedication to each activity. I choose what I do based upon my level of interest which varies over time.

When I was into martial arts, I couldn't understand how many of the other students did not have the same level of committment that I had. Of course, they all wanted a black belt so they would show up to class once every other week just to keep from being dropped. Once they got what they wanted, we never saw them again. I think it's the same. That's why the retention rate is so low.

There will always be divers just hanging around to get the card for bragging rights - boat fodder. They fill the boat so we have the minimum number of divers to make the trip. They also buy gear so manufacturers will have the money for R&D to create new products - for us. Like that 50W HID we all want.

It helps me to realize that while they may not be good divers, perhaps they are exceptional at some other activity, and the shoe would be on the other foot were I in their sand box.

 

[Rick Inman]

It helps me to realize that while they may not be good divers, perhaps they are exceptional at some other activity, and the shoe would be on the other foot were I in their sand box.

We agree. And to piggyback on that, if I go climbing with a someone while on vacation, that is fine (I've done a very little climbing, and I am crappy at it). But if I go solo free-climbing (no rope), I am a fool, because my training is not up to the task.

 

[The Chairman]

It boils down to differing goals.

We often see diving, and great diving skills almost as an end to themselves. Unfortunately, it appears that the majority of the diving public does not share our goals. They just want to get wet and have fun with little regard for finesse.

Diving is merely a distraction for them. They are not concerned about HOW they dive, only that they can tell tales of daring do. As John indicated, there is no risk management: it is replaced by adrenaline junkies who feel that they are above the laws of physics and who show a complete disregard for obtaining a skill set that will ensure their safety.

No, I don't feel that everyone should dive the way that I do. It would be nice, but I don't expect it at all. There are always going to be divers who push their luck by not learning what most of us see as "the basics". That they dabble deeper and longer and with more complicated toys just amazes me.