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UTD Z-side mount with isolatable manifold

Discussion in 'Sidemount Diving' started by eelnoraa, Jul 29, 2013.

  1. HenrikBP

    HenrikBP Solo Diver

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: New Mexico
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    I can't vouch for what other people say/write, but as I was trained you donate the reg you're breathing. It expedites donation and prevents donating a "non-breatheable" gas. For the majority of my dive time that would mean donating the long hose. On deco - yep :wink: I'd donate the deco reg.

    As for hose length difference between 40" and 40" - can't give you a qualified answer (I could give you a "smart a55" one though :)).

    If I were to venture a guess, it would be that during the dive portion, donating the long hose would allow for more maneuverability when it may be most needed. Whereas deco often involves much less moving about. Of course if you venture into diving that requires stages, specific bottom gas etc. etc. that starts to change things.

    Although the comments above about mixed team diving might also apply.
     
  2. TecDiveGear

    TecDiveGear ScubaBoard Business Sponsor ScubaBoard Business Sponsor

    # of Dives: I just don't log dives
    Location: NJ, USA
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    Ok, first of all here is few pictures of UTD Isolate-able Sidemount Manifold mounted on my xDeep Stealth 2.0 sidemount since I use that.

    IMG_6928-001.jpg IMG_6929-001.jpg IMG_6930-001.jpg IMG_6931-001.jpg SnapShot(68)-001.jpg SnapShot(69)-001.jpg SnapShot(70)-001.jpg SnapShot(72)-001.jpg SnapShot(75)-001.jpg SnapShot(76)-001.jpg

    Now, I have dove a sidemount (not only Stealth) without sidemount manifold for a while and think that having isolatable manifold is one of the greatest ideas of last sidemount times.
    Firstly it brings good, proven consistent with backmount DIR configuration. Whoever dives DIR backmount system knows that its been developed to the point that any failure has a proper and thought through solution and so is the same in sidemount equipped with manifold.

    There is lots of cons for using on both safety / emergency procedures but also on comfort of donning a bottles and gearing up on boats etc.

    After diving sidemount the standard way, long hose stuffed on cylinder and simulating emergencies and applying the solutions my opinion is that sidemount system without manifold is more of a solo diving configuration.

    As I have mention there will be a quite few situations that this manifold saves lots of problems or even saves a diver life, here is one ...

    You are diving cave / wreck (overhead), no vis or no light condition, your dive buddy runs out of gas, Me and assuming all of us cave / overhead divers were trained to turn to your dive buddy tap the reg in his mouth and just take it.
    What if your dive buddy breathes from necklace at this moment ?! since you switch the tanks once a while ?! Imagine, no light, no vis, you are holding the line for dear life with one hand. You are out of breath taking the reg from your buddy and there is a SURPRISE ! 22 inch necklace, now imagine donating diver thinking : don't pull (imagine your drowning buddy pulls after first two gentle ones when it doesn't go !) let me explain to you with sign or even touch language that if you will be patient for another minute or two I will give you the good one after I find it and don't forget to open the valve again since I wasn't breathing from it. Some probably will survive, others ... well I'm sorry.

    Its not the only advantage but life worth one right ?

    I recommend this manifold for every sidemount diver.

    Sebastian J.
     
  3. corvettejoe

    corvettejoe Divemaster

    # of Dives: I'm a Fish!
    Location: Orlando, FL
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    I don't see this Z manifold thing as solving any issues at all (I dive sidemount). There's too many extra connection points, o-rings, hoses tangled up all over it looks like.

    That's why we're trained as cave divers to stop and figure the issues out. If someone's out of air, who cares which breathable reg you give them, just give them whatever is in your mouth and go to whatever is not in your mouth that's breathable gas.

    Once they are calmed down, if they have your short hose... simply untangle it and give him your long hose, then exit.
    This should be something that's doable even in zero vis just by touch and feel. You can't see anyway... so calm down and figure the issue out, then safely exit.

    We practiced all kinds of crazy scenarios in my cave courses. I wish more instructors would do this to their students as well. It prepares them for that one "everything has failed at once" scenario.
     
  4. TecDiveGear

    TecDiveGear ScubaBoard Business Sponsor ScubaBoard Business Sponsor

    # of Dives: I just don't log dives
    Location: NJ, USA
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    Well that could work only if there is enough space for a OOG diver to safely and quick turn, but unfortunately I swim through on almost every NJ shipwreck penetration dive through the passages and hallways, staircases that scratching your A** would be impossible, I'm sure we can bring in seconds the restrictions and passages in many florida caves that wouldn't be possible also, so your plan fails again unless you have a deal with your gear that it can brake but only in wider specious spots :) remember reaching with your hand back for few secs for reg and breathing from a 22" necklace is far different, add stress etc and it creates different picture. That manifold is a really non complicating solution. You don't complain about manifold in back mount do you ? You know how much easier is to put the tank on you ? Just two snap on connectors and you are diving without need of routing all hoses in water ! I recommend you to try one if you have opportunity.
     
  5. DevonDiver

    DevonDiver N/A

    # of Dives: 5,000 - ∞
    Location: Subic Bay, Philippines
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    Alternatively, as mentioned, use a 40" short hose and don't trap that regulator in the necklace. It becomes abundantly donateable, straight from the mouth. A far more K.I.S.S. approach than the 'mad-scientist' tangle of hoses and failure points.

    The real learning point is that on sidemount, the short hose should be 'breakaway' for donation and of sufficient length to solve the initial crisis.

    Heck, if the issue of mixed-team confusion over long hose was that critical, then the diver could simply configure a long hose on both sides. Again, with a 'breakaway' from the necklace. It could be left stowed and routed around the neck to the necklace as per normal. Another, much simpler solution to the problem... and one that doesn't involve more failure points, shut down primary cylinders and crazy uber-complicated hose contraptions...

    Sebastian, lets be fair... if you sell it, you would.
     
  6. TecDiveGear

    TecDiveGear ScubaBoard Business Sponsor ScubaBoard Business Sponsor

    # of Dives: I just don't log dives
    Location: NJ, USA
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    It have nothing to do with me selling it, I'm asking again is there anything wrong with backmount DIR hose configuration ? Because its exactly what that manifold does ! I understand that its hard to adapt that in our minds because its called sidemount but it doesnt mean that it wouldnt work in this configuration like with backmount.

    Its also way more convenient to jugle the tanks since in standard (I will call it SOLO) configuration you have (in my case) four hoses (two from each tank) that comes out of the first stage to the divers primary and sec reg, BCD and drysuit inflation, think, if you unclip the tanks and start moving them around you have to consider those four hoses rotating in some direction, you need to be careful to clean up them after you clip the tanks back. Here with manifold you have only one hose that goes from each tank do the QC6 connector by your chest d-ring, which is easier to juggle and rotate ?

    Again, I really recommend to try this setup and guarantee a brain storm :) which will turn the positive for your sidemount diving decision.
     
  7. corvettejoe

    corvettejoe Divemaster

    # of Dives: I'm a Fish!
    Location: Orlando, FL
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    If you're back mounting and are going through tight passages, this may be something to think about... but this Z system is FOR sidemount. Sidemount isn't broken as far as I know. You have two completely redundant systems on either side of you. If one blows, you SHOULD have plenty of gas to safely exit any overhead environment if you properly managed your gas. There shouldn't be many instances where you need to air share in sidemount anyway.
     
  8. TecDiveGear

    TecDiveGear ScubaBoard Business Sponsor ScubaBoard Business Sponsor

    # of Dives: I just don't log dives
    Location: NJ, USA
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    You see my training and the way I train my students never allows to go diving with thinking:
    "well there shouldn't be many instances where you need to air share" its just not acceptable for me as a diver. Being able to safely exit and donate to any diver (might come totally out of blue not from your group) needing is one of the rules that never should be broken. Your approach will work but only in one case - diving solo.
     
  9. DevonDiver

    DevonDiver N/A

    # of Dives: 5,000 - ∞
    Location: Subic Bay, Philippines
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    Sidemount isn't backmount. Trying to force a backmount solution onto sidemount is flawed. The Z-manifold is particularly flawed. It abandons many DIR principles in order to satisfy one.

    The ultimate goal is to translate sidemount 'donate the long hose' into mixed-team 'donate from the mouth'. That's all...

    Please constructively critique my suggestion to configure two long-hoses, one stowed (to effect 'short-hose) routed, as normal, to a break-away necklace. That doesn't solve the problem of donating a long hose from the mouth? To me it seems far simpler, less failure prone and a more cost effective solution to safe mixed team diving...

    [​IMG]


    This is all, of course, assuming that a highly trained cave diver - one who tackles intense restrictions - would not have the presence of mind to simply access the original long-hose from it's position on a break-away just a couple of inches from the mouth...
     

    Attached Files:

  10. corvettejoe

    corvettejoe Divemaster

    # of Dives: I'm a Fish!
    Location: Orlando, FL
    319
    85
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    We have a saying within side mount cave divers "We're just a bunch of solo divers diving together".

    We're there to help the other person if needed, but still, if something goes wrong you can just switch to your other tank a lot faster and more easily than going for your buddy's reg. Especially in a blackout situation, its right there under your chin already (or wherever you stowed the reg you aren't breathing at the moment). There's no NEED to buddy breathe with fully independent sidemount tanks unless they BOTH blow up on you. And then if that happens.. what on earth is this Z manifold system going to do for either of you? Simply go for the other person's reg. How are you going to hand them the long hose anyway if you're in a super tight passage both facing forward and he's out of air in zero viz? Someone's going to have to turn/bend to some degree to hand that donated reg to the OOG diver.

    Also let me correct my statement on "well there shouldn't be many instances where you need to air share [in sidemount]"... "need" and "able to" are different. I'm always ABLE to share air.
     
    ianr33 and nakatomi like this.

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