Using LDS for a fitting room

[matthewmark_john]

I live in China. I'm not promoting "buy local". Buy from wherever you like, go and try stuff on then order it online. I don't care, I don't own a dive shop.

But let's be clear -- the "buy local" argument is the essentially the same as the "support your LDS" argument. The crux of both is this: that if you choose to buy something for a lower price elsewhere, you're not supporting the local labor and industry, which may then disappear, leaving us all at a disadvantage. I guarantee that one of the reasons you work in China is because the prices of something are better there. Even if you're a business consultant there, you will most likely be consulting for a business that deals internationally, and which does so competitively by benefiting from cheap labor, thus hurting those who live where you originated who cannot make a living on a similar price for their work. Refute this if you want, all I'm asking is that you do it with reasoning. John Donne said well that "No man is an island unto himself." In fact, if you gave even broad details of your type of position in your type of industry, I'll spell out exactly how that is true for you and your global dealings.

 

[mainedvr]

Each person knows their intention, if you walk in all nice and act like your going to buy when you know your not your a piece. So if a LDS has been having an issue with this then hey they are entitled to run their business how they feel fit. I do know that the mark up on goods is extreme, but that is business. Hmm wonder if I could buy gas online but fuel companies never over charge so not need....

 

[matthewmark_john]

Tortuga68--
To clarify: the topic of the post is "Do you use your LDS as a fitting room and then purchase online." Please, stop and think about this. It is not made clear that the people questioned are doing so with no intention of buying when they go in, although I believe that is implied. I first posted partly to remind folks that there are a lot of us who might engage in this exact behavior, but do it with honorable intentions -- i.e., being willing to buy at the LDS what they try, even if the price is higher than what is found online, as long as the dive shop is willing to negotiate to a price that is reasonable based on the service they provide.

I think we may be talking past each other.

 

[SeaHorse81]

I've skimmed through some of the posts and notice it's getting edgy in places. I'll just state my own practices and quietly bow out. aranoid:

I'm one of the "never" people, and was greatly encouraged to see that the "nevers" are the vast majority. If I owned an LDS, I would hope for as much.

If I first see an item in the LDS, I ask the staff any questions that I need to in order to better understand whether it's a good purchase for me, and I buy it. I don't go out and research so that I can come back and negotiate. I figure if I owe my knowledge of the product to the LDS, I owe them the sale. This goes from wetsuits to compasses to anything in between.

If I know about an item independent of the LDS, I may see if I can get it from the LDS at a negotiated price because I'd always prefer to buy local, keep my LDS open, and have in-person product support.

If it's an item I feel comfortable buying sight-unseen and is WAY cheaper online, like a safety sausage, retractor, or other bits of small gear of that type, I'll order it online with the presumption that I pretty much know what I'm getting. If I don't like it once it arrives, I figure that's the chance I took.

I know there are questionable ethics at numerous LDSs, but I'm sure that many more are just business people trying to find that fine line between being competitive and going out of business. I want to see them stay around, and I especially want to see ones near me stay around. There is no substitute for seeing an item yourself and having someone knowledgable right there with whom to discuss it. Besides, if the LDSs largely go away because of the new Internet business model, where will we get air fills??

 

[dmoore19]

It seems odd to me that most will pay $1.00 for a bottle of water and think nothing of it. Yet the same people consider it an insult if a retail store marks his product up 100%. I wonder what the margin on a bottle of water is if it is sold for $1? If you believe there is value in buying things from the LDS buy it there. If the lowest price possible is your goal buy it online. It's your money, spend it the way you like. That's what everybody is going to do anyway.

 

[k ellis]

It seems odd to me that most will pay $1.00 for a bottle of water and think nothing of it. Yet the same people consider it an insult if a retail store marks his product up 100%. I wonder what the margin on a bottle of water is if it is sold for $1? If you believe there is value in buying things from the LDS buy it there. If the lowest price possible is your goal buy it online. It's your money, spend it the way you like. That's what everybody is going to do anyway.

Most people pay 1.00 for the bottle of water because no matter where you go your going to pay 1.00 for it unless you buy it in bulk. The issue I have is when someone figured out that diving should not be for the Elite and extremely wealthy they did the smart thing and started selling product at a price people could afford. If Dive shops get mad because people found a way to enjoy the sport and actually be more inviting for new people to get into the sport because they can afford it then oh well.

One member on this board (Wont say names) was actually complaining once because instructors dont get wealthy because there is always someone who teaches because they love the sport or because its a friend or family member so they dont rob them. It should not be a sport kept to the elite. It should be available to every one.

While I agree whole heartedly if you want something bad enough youll pay for it. I refuse to give my life savings to a shop so it can survive and I can enjoy the sport. I bought a BCD online for 319 dollars that was retail from everyone else at not less then 700.00. It was brand new still in the box and I had 400 dollars I could use for my house hold and my bills were paid.

What I dont understand is why some people think of it as abuse when people go in with the intention of buying a wet suit per say and trys it on but cant negotiate a price with the shop that allows them to afford it. I go in and yes I try on a suit. I walk up to the counter knowing that the suit was say $149.00 I see the same suit in this shop for 400.00 and so I attempt to at least get it under 200.00 and am willing to pay for it. Why is it I am bad when I did atttempt to negotiate a deal with them that allows me to pay my bills, and pay for my needs?

Its not all about the poor dive shop any more its about meeting a happy medium where the dive shop can survive all while providing a service to the consumer at a cost he can survive too and enjoy his favorite past time.

 

[Mike]

We have two LDS in Southern New Hampshire. One has an absolutely flawed and completely corrupt business model, the other has figured it out. LDS(a) attempts to make its living on retail, discounts things like training and runs day trips to the beach for shore diving (guided, unnecessarily) for a song. LDS(b) has no retail, gives away fills on a regular basis and makes a killing selling training and diver services.

So which one has the absolutely flawed and completly corrupt business model and which one has it all figured out?

 

[Satori]

I try to support local businesses as much as possible. When it comes to scuba (or other outdoor equipment), there are 2 main variables: 1) Significant price difference and 2) customer service. If the price of an item is significantly different in a local store versus online, I can be inclined to buy online. Some retailers mark up all of their items at the same margin which can allow for some ridiculous retail prices regardless of competition. What is really comes down to is customer service. I spend time researching prospective items i am considering for purchase. Lots of time in fact. I could tell you the stitching ratio of the most recent back country pack I purchased. I expect a good amount of knowledge from the LDS staff regarding technical aspects of the products they are selling. If the local staff doesn't have a clue about their products, I am less likely to spend money at that store. I don't expect the staff to kiss my @ss and I don't really care if they smile. I just don't want to deal with a salesperson that has no idea about the products they are selling. If the staff can converse, compare and contrast the technical aspects of various products, along with maybe a personal testament or two, I will me more than happy to support that business. Some retailers just don't acknowledge how important customer service can be.

 

[matthewmark_john]

Each person knows their intention, if you walk in all nice and act like your going to buy when you know your not your a piece. So if a LDS has been having an issue with this then hey they are entitled to run their business how they feel fit. I do know that the mark up on goods is extreme, but that is business. Hmm wonder if I could buy gas online but fuel companies never over charge so not need....

I wholeheartedly agree with this. I'd just like to remind the shop owners, however, that not all people who do this are doing it in a dishonorable way. If you're not willing to negotiate on price when the other party is being reasonable (i.e. not expecting you to match internet price, but at least be more competitive), that's business. Going ballistic, taking out angry feelings on them is not.

 

[scubadobadoo]

IMHO it is a simple matter of moral, ethical, and courteous behavior. The price is right there on the item. If you don’t plan on buying it there, don’t try it on there. Buy it from the online guy and if it doesn’t fit keep sending it back until you find the right size. Or at least until you spend in shipping what the price difference was to begin with.

I don't use LDS's as a fitting room. Agreed. That said...

I'm not sure you understand yet that some items can be 400+ dollars more in some LDS's than they are online (regs, dry suits and more). For example, I have had LDS's try to sell me a dry suit for 3k and others (both online and local) were willing to sell the same dry suit for 1k.

Online, some shops will send you a whole bunch of items with free shipping.

Moreover, some LDS's will price match for one new customer and not for another new customer who didn't know they could ask for price matching so the price isn't always on the item and the idea of being moral, ethical, and courteous works both ways. Depends on the shop.

The online vs. LDS question can never really be answered without our own individual experiences informing our various answers. Thus, we are doomed to insult one another here even if it is not our intention to do so.

In the end though, if I owned a LDS I would certainly want you to come in and use it as a fitting room because I would love to have the opportunity to make a new friend and earn more money at the same time. I don't care why you come through my door, as long as you do.

But really in the end, I would never own a LDS because I am not a betting man... unless the odds are stacked my way. I find the things you love should mostly, with a few exceptions, be kept as hobbies less you risk hating the thing you love because you HAVE to do it or because IT isn't working out. I suspect this is the origin of the silly madness and bitter anger that some LDS owners and employees display when the word "internet" is spoken.