Unsafe divers on my boat!

[6Gill]

I would like to add that saying most bad divers are PADI certified is like saying most bad drivers drive fords. Both statements are probably true for the same reason.

cheers,

Hey Dave, well stated!

I hinted at it but you really layed it out very nicely!

 

[geraldp]

Sorry lhpdiver but I have to agree with Miketsp and MikeFerarra. My last two dive trips were on charter boats, and both times I was there by myself and begging for a buddy. I made it clear to everybody that I was barely past AOW status. Not everybody I asked agreed to buddy up with me, but when I did find buddies the three of us went through the buddy procedures. If I had been abandoned (for whatever reason) after that I would have been pretty pissed.

IMHO you should have "just said NO" (like you did with Mr OOA) if you weren't going to be a full buddy to this guy. I wouldn't say you were liable, but you were at least morally responsible for him.

Remember back a couple of months ago to the poor sap who was left floating offshore in So. Cal. for 5 hours. He had ear clearing problems and his 2 buddies "assumed" he had buddied up with somebody else and promptly forgot about him. Nobody noticed him missing after the dive. Ultimately it was the captain who was held liable, but both the pair of buddies and the DM shared some of the responsiblity for this guy.

Jerry

 

[divenut2001]

This isn't agency related - but it is dive op / diver responsibility / dive buddy / liability related. No names - no finger pointing.

Yesterday's dive. 110 ft wreck. Nice big dive boat unusally uncrowded for a Sunday afternoon. Capt, DM, 1 experienced hunter we know, 1 diver we had never met, seems like a nice guy maybe 30ish, my wife and myself. Very informal - we dive this boat alot. I'm unworking DM. On the ride out DM says maybe he'll join us - we agree new diver can join us. DM ties off and on surfacing says current is very strong - he won't be joining us - he's had enough exercise. Hunter goes in solo. Boat is not tied into line. Capt drops us in down current, I drift into bouy and descend to maybe 10-15 feet. Current is ripping. My wife is up line maybe 5 feet, I see other diver behind her it looks like he's about 2 feet off the line. I continue down the line and stop maybe at 60 feet. My wife is behind me but no other diver. We look at each other shrug and continue down. I figured he had trouble clearing...

Nice dive - hunter has good afternoon - see one other solo diver from a smaller boat. We surface and run into hunter at safety stop. Get back on the boat - crew says one diver to go. Huh ? New diver not on boat. Tell crew we didn't see him on the wreck. Hunter confirms. I'm reallly surprised this guy isn't on the boat. By now this is maybe 40-45 minutes after we hit the water. Leave the line tied into the wreck, let's start looking for the guy. Call comes in on the VHF. someone has picked up a lost diver. We go pick him up.

Turns out diver was pulled off line while looking at his gauge. He elected not to resurface but rather descended to sand and tried to pull himself along bottom to wreck. Gave up 20 minutes later and surfaced - who knows where - then floated. Back on boat the most constructive thing I could think to say was - next time surface and the capt. will drop you again. Guy sat out the second dive...

So was I wrong in not watching this guy more closely ? Should I have been at the top of the line ? When I realized he wasn't on the line behind us should we have aborted our dive to find him ? Was I liable ? Maybe things are different in different areas of the country. Here things are very casual. If these nods of the head given when someone asks if they can dive with you are contracts then there needs to be another waiver on the boat in addition to the one covering the boat owner's a**.

I like this wreck but in the fall I had to help another diver in an OOA situation there. Then sometime this spring - on another Sunday afternoon dive with my wife - another DM asked me if I would take this same diver (Mr OOA) on our dive. I said no. I didn't win any friends that day.

First of all you are a DM working or not. Second, you agreed to let that guy join you so guess what, not only are you his buddy but now you're also a working DM, just not getting paid. Buddies like you are why I prefer to dive solo. If he had made it down and your wife had not would you have assumed she could not clear and continued the dive or would you have gone up to look for her? I think we both know the answer to that. And 60 fsw is pretty deep to be waiting for the rest of the group especially with an unknown diver who's skills you're not familiar with. It would be a lot easier from 20 fsw to see and assist with any problems don't you think? I go to Fl from time to time to visit my daughter and dive in the Keys and depending on the dive op if they won't let me dive solo I "have" to dive with someone like you for "my" safety. The fact is the majority of the time they never look to see if I'm still with them, so they're not looking out for me at all so I don't see how they are going to make me any more safe than I can myself. So that other diver may as well have been diving solo then to dive with you. If you're going to let someone dive with you and your wife then take some responsibility and be a real buddy otherwise refuse like you did the OOA. BTW, did you bother to find out how he came to be OOA? Was it a mistake he made or equip problem?

 

[DBailey]

Question:

My question is this: there are stupid divers and good divers for ALL agencies - this is certain - but how can I, as another diver on a boat trip - protect myself and others from BLATANT STUPIDITY like this?????

Best answer:

I don't go on rec boats any more unless I know most or all of the divers on the boat.

 

[Jeddah Aquanaut]

I just read Rick Murchison's posting (http://www.scubaboard.com/t61446.html) and know that a bad diver doesn't necessarily come about because of bad training - or vis-versa. That being said, however, I have to admit that I have to resist cringing when I get on a boat and find that there are inesperienced divers from one particular agency: PADI.
On a recent trip to NC for some deep wreck diving, our first trip was on a 6pack with my team (3 of us: all Advanced Certified and one of us a certified Rescue Diver) and 2 PADI divers. We were going 34 miles out into the Atlantic and diving on a wreck at 117 fsw. We signed in on the clip board and the other two divers were PADI Open Water certified - one with only 13 dives and who had been certified 12 years before! The other diver had 33 dives. We later found out that the more experience diver was diabetic and had siezures... none of which was shared with the other divers. The other divers did NO BUDDY CHECKS and one of them didnt secure his tank and it came out of his BC at depth.
My question is this: there are stupid divers and good divers for ALL agencies - this is certain - but how can I, as another diver on a boat trip - protect myself and others from BLATANT STUPIDITY like this?????
Neither of them had the training or certifications for these dives and should have not been on the boat. One of them had medical problems that VERY EASILY could have lead to his death and possibly the death of his partner too. Obviously the dive shop was FAR more interested in the money than the safety of the dive so - how can we protect ourselves from being put in these situations?
Or - am I just stupidly naive? Should divers go on a boat and not give a damn about the other divers? This isnt what Rick did (see above) and I would hope that when (not if) I make such an error that someone "does the right thing" and helps me out.
Open to all suggestions here.....
Signed,
Frustrated Marc in Decatur, GA

Valid complaint aside, the PADI slam should best be put in the Whine and Cheeze section. I fail to see how a whole agency can be held accountable for diver and/or dive operation errors or other problems. What agency did you certify through? or your boat-mates that day? What makes one agency better than others? Let's face up to facts, ladies and gents: All agencies are in business to make money. Just because PADI as an agency has the reputation of worshipping at the altar of the almighty dollar, pound, Euro...(whatever), that should in no way diminish the quality instruction of PADI instructors. I know a handful of BSAC and other agency-certified divers here in Jeddah who bend the rules considerably, but that in no way makes me whine about those respective agencies overall. Of course the divers in your thread did not belong on the boat and were not experienced enough, and certainly the operators were also to blame. However, can we stop slamming PADI because of some of its members? That's like saying that the Catholic Church is bad because of the actions of some of its priests. to say that the whole is bad due to the actions of a few is not an argument of logic.

 

[FreeFloat]

I'm newly OW certified (June 26,2003) with only 4 dives. you could say that I'm a newnewby. I plan only to divewithin my experiance,confidence level. Just want to know how can I dive and gain experiance if people do not want to dive with me. They will know that I'm really new for now since I'm diving with a temporary c-card. Hope other divers won't feel that I'm imposing on them. BTW I'm also 53 y/o and will probaly be the old newby every time I dive. I love diving and want to log about 30 dives to increase my confidence/experiance level, then take AOW.

Ditto, if you were in my area I'd dive with you too. IMHO if I'm planning a dive with a "newbie", their level of experience is far less important to me than their "attitude" - with the right attitude they'll just soak up knowledge, and chances are I'd learn something new from them too!

 

[ScubaGoddess1]

I'd dive with you also...and hope to dive with Free Float soon too.

ScubaGoddess

 

[fmw625]

Thanks, It's good to know that I got a chance at having a dive buddy.

 

[FreeFloat]

Thanks, It's good to know that I got a chance at having a dive buddy.

If you're ever up in or near Toronto, look me up!

...and hope to dive with Free Float soon too.

Me too! When are you available - PM me.

 

[Web Monkey]

The whole "pick-your-agency sucks" thing is really pretty funny, considering they all have very similar standards.

In any event, they're just responsing to market pressure, where people decide that a week before they vacation in Someplace Warm, they want to get a C-Card so they can go diving.

Maybe the whole problem is in naming the cards, and we could fix it by changing the titles to:

"Might kill themselves, but probably won't kill anybody else"
"Probably won't kill themselves"
"Will probably be OK"
"Will be OK, and can help someone else if they're in trouble"

I'm no expert, but it might make marketing more difficult.

Terry

Valid complaint aside, the PADI slam should best be put in the Whine and Cheeze section. I fail to see how a whole agency can be held accountable for diver and/or dive operation errors or other problems. What agency did you certify through? or your boat-mates that day? What makes one agency better than others? Let's face up to facts, ladies and gents: All agencies are in business to make money.