Unsafe divers on my boat!

[wedivebc]

Yes I know what you mean. When I see an inexperienced diver with a NAUI card, I just cringe. No telling what type of training they have, and who knows what stupid stuff they may do.

Now wasn’t that an unfair and unfounded statement for me to make? Now I really don't feel that way, I judge each diver on their own merits, but I say it only to make a point. That point is that it absolutely funny the length people will go to, to bash one particular training agency. Why? Do they do so because it is successful, or because they have standardized training (which is IMHO not a bad thing). Bottom line is that inexperienced is inexperienced regardless of training agency.

What did the training agency have to do with anything that happened in this post? Answer: absolutely nothing! The divers just as easily could have been NAUI, YSCUBA, ACUC, IDEA, PDIC, SSI or some other agency. The account would have been more valid if the agency bashing were deleted.

The Facts here are:
1. Divers diving beyond their training (BOW diving below 60 feet) in violation of the certifying agency guidelines.
2. Divers signing up to dive deep who lack experience (13 dives in 12 years)
3. Divers signing up to dive deep who have not dove in a long time (and we don't know if they took a refresher course)
4. Diver with a significant health risk (but you do not know if a medically qualified person who knows dive medicine has evaluated the situation [which I doubt too] and given the go ahead).
5. Divers failed to make buddy pre dive check
6. Divers tank came loose on dive (seen it happen on more than one dive, and yes one of the divers was NAUI certified).
7. The above divers could have been trained by any agency (NAUI, YSCUBA, ACUC, IDEA, PDIC, SSI etc.) as the issues above are not a matter of training or even the quality of the instructor, but of the individual making poor decisions and failing to execute their training.

So how is any of the above PADI’s fault? Answer, it is not. It is the failure of the individual and, I might add the dive operator who booked them on the trip. The diver themselves failed to execute the dive as trained by their certifying agency and were diving beyond their certification level. So why the PADI bashing?

I would like to add that saying most bad divers are PADI certified is like saying most bad drivers drive fords. Both statements are probably true for the same reason.

cheers,

 

[MikeFerrara]

It seems that all the divers around you always seem to have the worst luck.

Yes, maybe it's my fault some how. Stray magnetic flux redirected by my backplate causing a vortex that causes good divers to just fall apart when they get near water.

NAUI, SSI and PADI all offer deep diving courses. What's your point?

Marc

If you're asking about this...

Which agency and what do they provide in the way of deep dive training in a AOW class?

...

It was a question not a point.

 

[MikeFerrara]

So was I wrong in not watching this guy more closely ? Should I have been at the top of the line ? When I realized he wasn't on the line behind us should we have aborted our dive to find him ? Was I liable ? Maybe things are different in different areas of the country. Here things are very casual. If these nods of the head given when someone asks if they can dive with you are contracts then there needs to be another waiver on the boat in addition to the one covering the boat owner's a**.

Buddies should descend watching eachother since descents and ascents are likely times during a dive for some one to have a problem.

If you don't want to share the responsibility for a divce with a buddy then dive without one.

Once you agree to be a buddy you should be one. If you don't want to be then doné lead any one to believe you are.

 

[O2BBubbleFree]

Your title seems to say a lot. Namely stating that this was YOUR boat, when it was not. Neither was it YOUR dive.

I just read Rick Murchison's posting (http://www.scubaboard.com/t61446.html) and know that a bad diver doesn't necessarily come about because of bad training - or vis-versa. That being said, however, I have to admit that I have to resist cringing when I get on a boat and find that there are inesperienced divers from one particular agency: PADI.

Agency bashing does nothing for your credibility.

We later found out that the more experience diver was diabetic and had siezures... none of which was shared with the other divers.

When you say "other diver," do you mean that his buddy didn't know, or that he didn't tell YOU?

If his buddy was aware, then it's up to the diver and his buddy to evaluate the risks. I don't know anything about diabetic seizures, and am in no position to tell a particular diabetic what he should or should not do. My guess is that you don't either.

The other divers did NO BUDDY CHECKS and one of them didn't secure his tank and it came out of his BC at depth.

Accidents happen.

My question is this: there are stupid divers and good divers for ALL agencies - this is certain - but how can I, as another diver on a boat trip - protect myself and others from BLATANT STUPIDITY like this?????

Why were you at risk? Just keep your distance. Why is it your responsibility to protect 'others?' You sound like you think you should be able to decide who's 'good enough' to dive.

Neither of them had the training or certifications for these dives and should have not been on the boat. One of them had medical problems that VERY EASILY could have lead to his death and possibly the death of his partner too.

Again, do you really know that? For example, do you know for a fact that his seizures come on without enough warning for him to abort the dive? Why do you feel responsible for him and his partner?

Obviously the dive shop was FAR more interested in the money than the safety of the dive so - how can we protect ourselves from being put in these situations?
Or - am I just stupidly naive? Should divers go on a boat and not give a damn about the other divers? This isnt what Rick did (see above) and I would hope that when (not if) I make such an error that someone "does the right thing" and helps me out.
Open to all suggestions here.....
Signed,
Frustrated Marc in Decatur, GA

Here's a suggestion. Relax. Don't take on more responsibilty than you actually have.

 

[cdiver2]

I just read Rick Murchison's posting (http://www.scubaboard.com/t61446.html) and know that a bad diver doesn't necessarily come about because of bad training - or vis-versa. That being said, however, I have to admit that I have to resist cringing when I get on a boat and find that there are inesperienced divers from one particular agency: PADI.
On a recent trip to NC for some deep wreck diving, our first trip was on a 6pack with my team (3 of us: all Advanced Certified and one of us a certified Rescue Diver) and 2 PADI divers. We were going 34 miles out into the Atlantic and diving on a wreck at 117 fsw. We signed in on the clip board and the other two divers were PADI Open Water certified - one with only 13 dives and who had been certified 12 years before! The other diver had 33 dives. We later found out that the more experience diver was diabetic and had siezures... none of which was shared with the other divers. The other divers did NO BUDDY CHECKS and one of them didnt secure his tank and it came out of his BC at depth.
My question is this: there are stupid divers and good divers for ALL agencies - this is certain - but how can I, as another diver on a boat trip - protect myself and others from BLATANT STUPIDITY like this?????
Neither of them had the training or certifications for these dives and should have not been on the boat. One of them had medical problems that VERY EASILY could have lead to his death and possibly the death of his partner too. Obviously the dive shop was FAR more interested in the money than the safety of the dive so - how can we protect ourselves from being put in these situations?
Or - am I just stupidly naive? Should divers go on a boat and not give a damn about the other divers? This isnt what Rick did (see above) and I would hope that when (not if) I make such an error that someone "does the right thing" and helps me out.
Open to all suggestions here.....
Signed,
Frustrated Marc in Decatur, GA

I don't understand. If there is a bad diver on the boat and he/she is not your buddy what do you need protecting from ?.
Pick a buddy you are comfortable with end of story, on the other hand if you go on a dive charter with no buddy then you get what you get, its your problem for not having a buddy, the charter's obligation is to get you to and from the dive site not provide a buddy thats to your liking

As far as public service divers go, YOU volunteered if you don't like the fact that you risk your life to get a body *don't do it* nobody is forcing you to do it.

 

[scubasean]

I'm newly OW certified (June 26,2003) with only 4 dives. you could say that I'm a newnewby. I plan only to divewithin my experiance,confidence level. Just want to know how can I dive and gain experiance if people do not want to dive with me. They will know that I'm really new for now since I'm diving with a temporary c-card. Hope other divers won't feel that I'm imposing on them. BTW I'm also 53 y/o and will probaly be the old newby every time I dive. I love diving and want to log about 30 dives to increase my confidence/experiance level, then take AOW.

Come out to Monterey...Lets Dive!

 

[getwet2]

My immediate concern would be for myself and my buddy, not anyone else. If they feel they are up to the dive and the dive op doesn't have a problem with it then neither should you, there are lot's of things we don't have control over and how someone chooses to run their business is one of them. If something happens to them the dive op is going to have to answer some questions.

If you show up without a buddy and are going to be stuck with someone you don't know that's a little different but it's something you were already aware of and prepared to accept. I would use the time it takes to get to the dive site as a chance to ask some questions and get to know the people and the type of diving they have done, ask to see their logbook for yourself and offer to show them yours, they shouldn't object. After all they are probably just as curious as you are. At the end of this time if you still don't feel comfortable, it's time for you to decide, to dive or not to dive. Only you can make that choice! If you choose to dive then you should both be keeping an eye on each other more than usual and take note of how they dive. Go over your plan and agree before entering the water to show each other your guages not just give the OK sign and not to push any limits. You never know, they might be a better diver then you think you are.

As for medical problems, if they choose not to tell you then there is no way of you knowing. They should be concerned enough about their own health to seek the advice of a doctor before they go diving, I'm sure they really don't want to die while diving. In the end accidents do happen, even to the most cautious divers.

 

[lhpdiver]

Originally Posted by MikeFerrara
I was on a Lake Michigan boat one day and the deepest dive was about 75 ft. There were 6 of us on the boat and my wife and I were the only ones to actually get down to a wreck. The other 4 divers had all kinds of probles ranging from lost weight belts, lost tanks (and near drowning because of it) to who knows what. Every diver was at least AOW certified. My wife and I cut both dives short because no one else ever showed up on the wreck and we didn't want to complicate any rescue attempt by staying in the water.

It was your post earlier which prompted me to make my post. I thought I saw similarities in our experiences. I didn't abort my dive because I felt the guy could make it to the surface from a depth of 5 feet. Heck he made it to the sand (110 feet) by himself. Sounds like you didn't abort your dive because you thought someone else had things under control.

Buddies should descend watching eachother since descents and ascents are likely times during a dive for some one to have a problem.

Ya know - that's the one piece of pre-dive agreement we had. He declared that he sucked air and he'd signal when he hit 1200 psi and head up the line hiimself.

If you don't want to share the responsibility for a divce with a buddy then dive without one.

That was kind of one of the core pieces of info I was trying to bring up in my post. I already had a buddy. The best. As a courtesy I see a guy by himself and say basically - you can hang with us if you want. If he'd of had a problem at depth I would have dealt with it. And the Cpt and DM knew that.

btw - no one was pointing a finger at my wife or myself in this escapade, especially the diver in question who was rather embarassed. Looking back on it - if we would have ascended the line looking for him it would not have been any better. By that point the guy was free falling to the sand off the line. We wouldn't have seen him and when we got to the surface the Captain would have had to start a search for the guy, who wouldn't have surfaced for 20 minutes.

 

[pasley]

Just to play the devil's advocate for a minute.
Let's just suppose the boat operator reviewed the qualifications of the prospective customer and decided they were lacking....

Then what, if the operator refuses to carry the customer, can't he be accused of discrimination?... DM.

Aw, your engaging in my favorite past time. We learn much from such discussions and yours is an interesting point.

In the USA, discrimination is NOT illegal or sue able, provided it is not based on race, religion, or sexual orientation or some other protected class. Discrimination is practiced every day and is allowed, and in many cases, required by statue. The very act of not accepting a diver on a dive trip who is not certified is discrimination in the purest sense. Not serving alcohol to persons under a specific age is discrimination. But as you mention every country has their own laws and what works here may not be the case someplace else.

Now to your point, JMHO, as long as the operator UNIFORMLY applies a standard obtainable by all regardless of race, creed, sexual orientation, religion etc, there should be no problem. The key phrase here is “If you apply the same standard to all divers”. That would require establishing and preferably publishing the standard on their web site or some other location accessible to the public. Example of an ad, “Dive Site X-Ray is an advance level dive due to currents and depths of 167 FSW see our website for details” Website: “Dive Site X-Ray is an advance level dive due to currents and depths of 167 FSW. All divers are required to have a minimum of AOW Certification, at least 50 lifetime dives, of which at least 6 dives were in the past 6 months, with at least one of those to depths in excess of 100 FSW, or retain the services of a DM guide to accompany them on this dive”. Then IMHO, in the USA the boat operator would be within his rights to thus limit his liability. In my area at least one boat operator rates the dive trips as beginner, intermediate, advance or technical and defines what qualifies a diver at each level in terms of dive experience and why the dive sites are so rated (strong open ocean currents, depth etc).

Discrimination can always be charged, but will not get far if there is a sound business reason for the standard that uniformly applies to all and that standard can be met by members of any gender, race, creed etc. A business operator has a right to limit his liability, particularly in a hazardous business such as diving, provided the standards are reasonable and based upon sound business principles.


Now if the operator allows one diver who does not meet the standard to go on the trip and denies services to another diver, and the difference between the two divers is only their race, or religion, or sexual orientation, well then his goose is, as it should be, cooked for discrimination.

But you do bring up a good point, and thanks, I had not considered that angle.

 

[6Gill]

Wow, I would have thought that with the liability issues that the US would be really strict about this.

We have recently expanded our "no card no dive" rule to include a medical/experience declaration for certified divers.

Do you really think the diabetic diver was going to check NO on anything? Divers like we are talking about, are not going to fill out this form truthfully. Actually I suspect this diver never has filled out this form truthfully. So whats the point? Do you require all divers to have a medical form signed by a doctor? Lot's of luck!