Universal galvanic sensors

[doctormike]

While I understand the argument, I think current events are obviously the reason for supply problems. This will pass and hopefully governments will learn from this experience and the next virus will not cause such market disruptions.

Sure, but it's not limited to just this pandemic. If you have a standardized product produced quantities orders of magnitude greater than specialized versions that do the same job but are not interchangeable, you will be more resistant to supply chain issues no matter what the disruption is and no matter how well it is handled. Standardized parts can be made in multiple locations more easily, so if there is a problem in once place, users can source the part from elsewhere. It's not just a COVID thing.

 

[tbone1004]

@rjack321 N90 sells the adapter harnesses
The molex pins are a PITA to get out of the cells and I'd much rather have something different to deal with. If there's corrosion on the SMB connections then they aren't using enough grease...

@doctormike the difference in cells has nothing to do with the shortage and if the R22d was the only cell available we would still be in the same place. The cells themselves are all the same, it's the connectors that are different and that's something that is not holding up the supply line. There are still only a small handful of suppliers for these things and none of them have any interest in selling directly. In fact, when I was trying to set up an account with AI for my company since we use R22's in some of our machines, they directed me to DGX since their MOQ is far too big to bother with someone ordering a dozen at a time.

 

[doctormike]

@rjack321

@doctormike the difference in cells has nothing to do with the shortage and if the R22d was the only cell available we would still be in the same place.

Disagree. While the difference in cells and the demand for O2 sensors for medical use during the pandemic are obviously unrelated, the point is that if you have a standard part (a battery, a light bulb, a tank valve, etc..), your supply lines are more resilient to disruption because the items are fungible.

Again, my main point was that there is no real advantage to the industry as a whole to having multiple non-interchangeable versions of essentially the same part. I can take a AA battery out of my JJ and put it in any other rebreather that takes an AA battery. Small distributors don't have to worry about stocking more than one type of AA battery.

And since with a standard there aren't a number of small supplies of unique sensors, all of the cells would move from manufacturer to distributor to retailer to customer and a stable flow rate, so you don't have cells aging while they wait for a buyer with a less popular rebreather.

I mean, I certainly understand the problems with settling on a standard sensor. I just don't understand the argument that the present situation is somehow preferable.

 

[rjack321]

Disagree. While the difference in cells and the demand for O2 sensors for medical use during the pandemic are obviously unrelated, the point is that if you have a standard part (a battery, a light bulb, a tank valve, etc..), your supply lines are more resilient to disruption because the items are fungible.

Again, my main point was that there is no real advantage to the industry as a whole to having multiple non-interchangeable versions of essentially the same part. I can take a AA battery out of my JJ and put it in any other rebreather that takes an AA battery. Small distributors don't have to worry about stocking more than one type of AA battery.

And since with a standard there aren't a number of small supplies of unique sensors, all of the cells would move from manufacturer to distributor to retailer to customer and a stable flow rate, so you don't have cells aging while they wait for a buyer with a less popular rebreather.

I mean, I certainly understand the problems with settling on a standard sensor. I just don't understand the argument that the present situation is somehow preferable.

You keep using the battery analogy. But the reality is there are AAA, AA, C, D, 9V, and 6V alkalines, plus about 12 different types of nicad and nimhs, and li-ions in different sizes and voltages. There is no "standard" battery anymore than there is a standard O2 cell.

as @tbone1004 keeps trying to tell you, the difference in batteries are not what is creating supply issues right now, they are all the functionally same inside anyway.

 

[RainPilot]

I would be very surprised if any sensor manufacturer considers the CCR market anywhere near a useful proportion of their total sales, and the additional liability has made it a tough sell, historically, to get some companies to even make a CCR version available at all. If I were a sensor company, I don't know that there is any level of investment that I would take on to service the CCR market.

The Poseidon situation with the solid state sensors is a good example. Basically, Poseidon has taken on all liability etc for the underwater application of the sensors. The cost of the CE testing, modifications for CCR use etc has made those cells a LOT more expensive than the same cell certified for surface use. This is part of why the price points on them are what they are. Now, Poseidon sells a BUNCH of these to various militaries in some very novel configurations, to the point where they are battling to keep up, but the market share STILL isn't enough for the manufacturer to get directly involved.

 

[rjack321]

I would be very surprised if any sensor manufacturer considers the CCR market anywhere near a useful proportion of their total sales, and the additional liability has made it a tough sell, historically, to get some companies to even make a CCR version available at all. If I were a sensor company, I don't know that there is any level of investment that I would take on to service the CCR market.

^^^ This!
Just getting them to bless cells for underwater use at all is a huge hurdle. Anyone who remembers when AI sucked and Teledyne decided to "leave" the CCR market due to its low value vs high liability knows exactly why they don't care about divers - in fact they would prefer we didnt buy their sensors at all.

 

[doctormike]

You keep using the battery analogy. But the reality is there are AAA, AA, C, D, 9V, and 6V alkalines, plus about 12 different types of nicad and nimhs, and li-ions in different sizes and voltages. There is no "standard" battery anymore than there is a standard O2 cell.

Right, but the reason I use the battery analogy is that the batteries aren't specific for one particular manufacturer of flashlights. AA batteries ARE a manufacturing standard. So that any device manufacturer that builds a device that runs on AA batteries can be assured that the end user can source the batteries from any company anywhere that makes an AA battery. From anywhere in the world.

as @tbone1004 keeps trying to tell you, the difference in batteries are not what is creating supply issues right now, they are all the functionally same inside anyway.[/QUOTE]

I wasn't saying that the lack of a standard was what was causing supply issues right now. I was saying that a single standard design that could be put in any rebreather makes supply chains more resilient. So in this case, if one company catches up with medical demand to the point that they can start supplying CCR cells again, there won't be an issue of JJ users specifically waiting for JJ cells. They are fungible. The next time it might be a more localized problem (shipping, natural disaster, etc..). It just makes sense for there to be one standard.

Now maybe the problem isn't with the sensors but with the rebreather design. Maybe I should be wishing that the manufacturers of the JJ, the ISC Meg, the rEvo, the SF2, the XCCR, the Inspiration, the Evolution and a few others would redesign their heads so that they use the RD22 with molex connectors or something. That would be the same thing. But it would be great if - in trying to get sensors for my CCR - if I didn't have to just look at the small pool of PSR-11-39-JJ suppliers.

 

[doctormike]

I would be very surprised if any sensor manufacturer considers the CCR market anywhere near a useful proportion of their total sales, and the additional liability has made it a tough sell, historically, to get some companies to even make a CCR version available at all. If I were a sensor company, I don't know that there is any level of investment that I would take on to service the CCR market.

Well isn't that an argument for standardization? Wouldn't one standard make it easier for the manufacturers? I mean, Vandagraph and AI are making CCR sensors now, so at some level it must be worth their while. Since it's such a small market, wouldn't it be better for them to only make one design rather than multiple designs?

 

[tbone1004]

I mean, I certainly understand the problems with settling on a standard sensor. I just don't understand the argument that the present situation is somehow preferable.

It's not preferable, but if the industry used 1 single cell the situation would not be any different. The guts of the cells are essentially identical, that's the part that they can't make enough of.
You happen to dive one of essentially 3 units that doesn't accept what is I consider to be the standard CCR cell. It's the cell that most all of the nitrox sensors use, and it's the cell that with the exception of the JJ, SF2, and Inspiration, every other mainstream rebreather uses. Narked at 90 makes harness adapters to let you use normal cells in your unit. Take it up with the guys that make the JJ, but the rest of the industry seems to have done what you are wanting and has settled one one cell.

Again though, the SMB connectors are NOT driven by the rebreather industry. They are used in industrial applications, so they aren't made specifically for the JJ. JJ just chose a somewhat obscure part number compared to the rest of the industry. For all we know the JJ cell is actually the most common one used in the medical field where most of these things go and that's why the other manufacturers chose to use the molex connector.

 

[Jack Hammer]

the point is that if you have a standard part (a battery, a light bulb, a tank valve, etc..), your supply lines are more resilient to disruption because the items are fungible.

Standardized batteries come in multiple voltages, capacities, sizes, and shapes. Standardized light bulbs come in multiple sizes, shapes, brightness, & light spectrums. Standardized tank valves come in different shapes, styles, widths, connections,, etc.

Standardization doesn't mean identical. Rebreather cells are more standardized than you think.