Unconsciousness/Blocked Airway/Embolism

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[divemed06 I'd respond but I'm not exactly sure what you are saying... If I understand correctly, because you know someone who survived an uncon ascent and did not embolize, therefore it is impossible to embolize in this situation.]
Not impossible but most likley will not I have said that a hundred times by now.
I have said from the start that you must get that person off the bottom as fast as you can. I have maintained that if you need too do a rapid accent with out fear of killing the other diver from a embolism. Thats all I have ever said. You all responded like you are going to embolis the patient several times over. It was what has been said.
The fact that what most will now respond with is well no kiding you have to get off the bottom to be able to help. All I ever said was that you have to wait for the convulsing to stop then go on up as you are OK to do it as a controlled rapid accent as you will MOST LIKLEY not embolis the victom.
[ You have to surface the unconscious diver and start resus. As a rescuer, if you're debating the "emboli" question while holding onto the uncon diver at depth, you're wasting your brain activity. Get him up and get him out, pump and blow (if required) and get him to the hospital ASAP]
Only after the convulsing has stopped before that and you did just kill him. The limp diver will most likley not embolise. I am not the one wasting my brain power only when these threads go off into deep space do I as I feel it important that others have a clear understanding as what to do with a uncon diver. One person thought it be prudent to dump his weights and shoot him on up as I think he was going off what you may have said.
Derek
 
The following is taken from my website. It is the outline of a protocol I teach my students. Some of you may find it useful, some may not.

Suggested procedure for controlling and surfacing with a Toxed Diver
(decompression diver and intermediate trimix class)

Divers follow a set protocol to help them manage the risks associated with breathing high partial pressures of oxygen. This protocol is universally adopted in the technical diving community because central nervous system (CNS) oxygen toxicity carries the very real potential for serious injury and death.

Of course the protocol works and every week around the globe many thousands of technical dives, employing all sorts of oxygen-rich breathing mixtures, are successfully completed. However, as unlikely as it may be that a member of your dive team will suffer an OxTox episode,* you will be asked to demonstrate the following procedure during your TDI techdiver training program. This procedure is simply a suggestion of how to attempt to stabilize and surface with a diver who has presented the signs of a clonic / tonic episode. You may regard this as a basic solution and it is certainly open for further refinement.

Any diver may present a CNS episode without prior warning. Without aid, the chances are good that this diver will die: either from massive over-expansion injury after floating to the surface while in spasm; or from drowning having spit out her regulator while in spasm. Please bear in mind that almost any intervention may increase the diver's odds of surviving the episode.


1/ Stabilize the convulsing diver. Control her position in the water column by making physical contact (either with her person or a piece of equipment.) Do not ascend while she is in shock and convulsing.
2/ Do your best to hold the regulator in her mouth (certainly the gas she is breathing MAY be causing the convulsions, and the ideal action would be to have the stricken diver breathe from YOUR gas supply; however, breathing any gas is better than breathing water).
3/ Signal to other team members that you need assistance
4/ Do not attempt to ascend until the diver's body relaxes and the convulsions cease.
5/ When convulsions cease, check the level of diver's consciousness. If she is awake, signal her to switch regulators to a gas YOU KNOW is appropriate for your current depth. If they are breathing but are unresponsive (likely) you may not be able to switch regulators. MAKE SURE THAT WHICHEVER REGULATOR IS IN USE IS ATTACHED TO AN ABUNDANT GAS SUPPLY! Monitor gas levels for the stricken diver often. (Also be aware that toxed diver may behave irrationally and aggressively when they regain consciousness.)
6/ Adopt recovery position** and begin ascent KEEPING HER AIRWAY OPEN AND REGULATOR IN PLACE. Use her buoyancy compensator to control ascent for you both. (Open the automatic vent on her dry suit and yours.) If you have another team member helping, sandwich the stricken diver between the two of you.
7/ If possible, blow a signal marker to tell your surface support that you have an in-water emergency.
8/ Complete your decompression schedule. You may choose to accelerate it if circumstances dictate, but DO NOT risk DCI to get the stricken diver to the surface... Remember, she has the same obligation as the rest of her team!
9/ Be prepared for a second series of convulsions.
10/ Bring diver to surface and secure and remove gear (inflate wings, clip to equipment line, cut harness), get diver to surface personnel or on boat or on shore.
11/ Activate EMS. Note: The correct call to the Coast Guard in this situation would be a pan pan and NOT a mayday.
12/ Monitor. Document. Follow Instructions from EMS or Coast Guard. Reassure. Treat for Shock. Watch for signs of DCI. Set diver's gear aside for inquiry... Either one among your team or group, or more formal.


* Oxygen Toxicity may present itself underwater in the form of a clonic-tonic convulsion. However, a convulsing diver may or may not be experiencing a CNS toxicity episode. You cannot diagnose precisely what's going on, so always deal with the situation in a structured way and resist the temptation to second-guess the situation.

Do check to see if the MOD of the gas the stricken diver was breathing when they convulsed corresponds to the depth they were at. Do get them on a leaner mix or get them higher in the water column, as swiftly as is possible without compromising other safety protocols. Do Watch your own gas switches.


** Recovery position = anything that works! Essentially, you will ride the stricken diver through the water column making sure you have control of their BC, their airway (keep it open) and the regulator (in their mouth). I find it difficult to completely control venting gas in a stricken diver's drysuit (and my own in these circumstances) if I maintain a horizontal trim. I find I do better if I present them and myself in a semi-vertical attitude. I also prefer to be able to monitor the stricken diver's eyes. And so prefer to be facing them rather than being behind them. Try threading your right arm under theirs, around their shoulder holding their BC inflator in your right hand. Use your left hand to hold their regulator in place. Do your best and remember that style takes a back seat to function... Use any fixed aid -- such as an anchor line or wall -- to assist and arrest your ascent. This is one of the few exercises on your training course where you are "allowed" to hold onto ascent lines and walls, and where you will not be "penalized" for being vertical in the water! However, your acsent rate should not exceed the normal rate for your profile and safety or decompression stops must be taken as required.
 
OK this has gone from a air diver to trimix. The accident that we are talking about was on air. That is how this thread was created. This was not a trimix diver. I think I did say in basic terms what you just explained in great detail. I was omiting the other parts about transfer of reg for saftey stops and so on mainly because it was about a dude who had a heart attack. Or so was mentioned first and then how the instructor brought him up too fast. And that cuased him to embolise but inthe start of the thread it said he had gone limp and started to sink. If had indeed have a heart attack then he would have convulsed. Would you not agree that is all I said then a barrage of no he will embolise and so on or drop his weights as that seems prudent and so on.

Derek
 
wolf eel:
If had indeed have a heart attack then he would have convulsed.
Derek


No...why would an MI imply a convulsion??? You can get an MI and not convulse! MIs comprise of a ventilation/perfusion mismatch due to a coronary event reducing the efficient blood supply for the body's demand. Our body however, can compensate to reduce the insult on our brains. Furthermore, you can suffer from a pulmonary embolism even though you're not ascending. I havn't seen the coroner's report in this case, but, just like you can have an MI underwater, you can also suffer from an embolism at depth, among many other problems.
 
Ontario Diver:
Thanks Doppler....


You're welcome... not sure it has any special relevance in "non-technical" diving but someone may find it useful reading
 
[divemed06 No...why would an MI imply a convulsion??? You can get an MI and not convulse! MIs comprise of a ventilation/perfusion mismatch due to a coronary event reducing the efficient blood supply for the body's demand. Our body however, can compensate to reduce the insult on our brains. Furthermore, you can suffer from a pulmonary embolism even though you're not ascending. I havn't seen the coroner's report in this case, but, just like you can have an MI underwater, you can also suffer from an embolism at depth, among many other problems.]

I no longer care as it has gone from one thing to another. You can not have an embolism for no reason even at depth. You can have all kinds of grief did you not read what happened to the other guy IT worked. I should not have used the word convulsing. But iof a person was having a heart attack would it not be prudent to wait for that person to stop what ever body reflex(doing the chicken is that better) you wish to call it then proceed on up and again if they had convulsed you would wait would you not also. Did you not understand what the other gentlemen said at all. He is alive because of it. I am waiting on one more Diving docs response then I will post his comments. Are saying that the throat will remain closed and you will have an embolism and that the other guy was lieing ? I do not understand you. Your are only bounceing words around. I must admit I get sick of this fast. Are you saying what doppler said is wrong ?
Derek
 
Doppler:
You're welcome... not sure it has any special relevance in "non-technical" diving but someone may find it useful reading

There is no "special" relevance at all. The physiological issues around embolism would be the same for any non-breathing, non-reponsive diver who is convulsing or spasming. All that you have done is wrapped it in a general case rather than a specific case.

I would like to point out however, that point 11 is arguable. (well heck, any point is arguable but....)

Mayday is used for danger to life. A diver who has convulsed and is brought up still needs evacuation and immeadiate care. Pan Pan is for non-critical and non-immeadiate calls (ie. my motor isn't working and I am drifting.)

This is not meant as a flame or in anyway to take away from the rest of the piece - just a clarification of the meaning of the radiotelephone call.
 
wolf eel:
You can not have an embolism for no reason even at depth. Derek

OK...at this point, I think I'm just wasting my time. Embolisms happen every day, all over the world! They can happen while driving, while sleeping, while eating, while having sex, and of course, while diving (or anytime, anyplace, for that matter). Maybe you're having trouble expressing yourself in english, or maybe I just don't quite understand what you're saying. I would, however, encourage anyone reading these posts not to take wolf eel's comments as accurate medical facts. If anyone disagrees with what I've posted, than please find yourself a reliable medical textbook to consult and go from there. I would shy away from using "one person's experience" as factual evidence when it comes to medical topics. Lastly, I don't pretend to know everything about medicine as it relates to diving. However, I do know that if you're ever diving in the Great Lakes region and you happen (God forbid!) to end up in my Emergency Department, chances are I'll be treating you (at least initially). This will be my last post on this topic.
 
AGE

http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic787.htm

http://www.diseasesdatabase.com/search_engines.asp?glngUserChoice=313


Pnuemothorax

http://medicine.creighton.edu/forpatients/pneumothor/Pneumothorax.html

http://nelhpc.sghms.ac.uk/orangebook/spontaneous pnuemothorax.htm

bleb

http://chorus.rad.mcw.edu/doc/00044.html



Trauma, lung disease, surgery, pressure changes, etc. there are many reasons a person can have an AGE or pnuemothorax that are not related to diving.



If you follow the link in my previous post http://www.voicedoctor.net/therapy/laryngospasm.html you will find that you can experience laryngospasm whether awake and alert or not.

This is not to say the throat will close or remain closed just that it can occur, it was stated previously that when someone is not awake the throat will be open and this statement is not accurate.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

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