Triggers of Dive Accidents

[AggieDiver]

I disagree completely.



If a majority, or a large chunk of fatalities have OOA as the triggering factor, then it makes sense to train better to prevent that or mitigate the risk irregardless of how often OOAs are successfully dealt with.

True, and in an ideal world, we would just add 5-10 hours of additional instruction time to the class and address it in far greater detail. But in the real world, instructors have a finite amount of time to impart the material to students that isn't likely to go up in the near future given current BOW trends. So the question is what do you not talk about or what do you talk about less to give you time to talk more about those things.

All I am arguing is that (using totally made up numbers for hypothetical purposes) if the stats showed that the fatality rate is something like 1 fatality for every 100 OOA incidents while it is 1 fatality for every 20 DCS hits, then it would be foolish to take time away from talking about DCS to talk more about OOA, even if OOA is a higher percent of the fatalities, because clearly the level of training already makes it less likely to kill on a per incident basis than DCS.

Now the problem (and what I was agreeing with Ken on) is that we don't have the necessary statistics to make that determination at this time. So given that we aren't sure how often OOA happens and exactly why, it is best to address how to deal with it successfully and then worry about preventing it once we have a better understanding of why it is happening and how often. If you don't know why divers are doing it in many of the cases where it leads to fatalities, then how can you teach divers to avoid that behavior?

 

[lamont]

Lamont, I agree.

The point of the discussion, however, is that Ken feels that if you learn how to not run out of air dealing with it will never be a problem, while I am saying that no mater what you do going OOA has a certain level of inevitability and that if you know how to deal with it, then running out of air will not be a problem.

Yes, like i said a couple pages back, trying to deal with it through not teaching how to deal with running OOA is not helping to solve the problem.

I do agree that I don't think enough emphasis (or any emphasis really) is given to how dramatically your options are reduced once you lose your ability to breathe while submerged. And this goes beyond OOA as well, since we've had fatalities caused by newbie rec divers swimming out on the surface with their gas off (to "save gas") and then dropping down and drowning because they couldn't get their valve back on.

 

[danvolker]

Lamont, I agree.

The point of the discussion, however, is that Ken feels that if you learn how to not run out of air dealing with it will never be a problem, while I am saying that no mater what you do going OOA has a certain level of inevitability and that if you know how to deal with it, then running out of air will not be a problem.

Maybe the scariest part of Ken's post is that you can almost imagine a major training agency deciding how much more "expediant" it would be to eliminate all OOA training....or making it something for "very advanced divers"

This is almost a "follow the money" phenomenon....the "entities" that will want to eliminate OOA training, will be the unscrupulous, or the misled...For them it will be the great new way to cut costs and increase profits.

Meanwhile the GOOD instructors, will lose some profit by spending more time on teaching basic skills ( proper weighting and bouyancy/gas management/s drills/buddy awareness/OOA simulations) , and by flunking people that can't learn to dive safely. This will make classes take longer, and there will be less people in some classes....There will also be far less OOA and deaths from this.....hmmnn...this may have just pushed a few more bad instruction entities, over toward eliminating OOA training


REgards,
DanV

P.s.

Maybe we should discuss the CESA issue as well...while I am clearly an advocate for the buddy system and proactively preventing OOA.....when I first started diving I would practice free ascents from 90 and 100 feet, and found them incredibly simple and easy to do....while the practice from this depth is not a safe thing for a person with a pfo ( 25 % of the certified divers--you know, another group of divers who should have been screened out of diving), you can certainly do one and then go right back down, prior to any chance for hypersaturation....in other words, learning this as a skill that each diver should have is a small risk, well mitigated by a rapid return to 100 feet, and one worth the risk if it will create an instinct to properly exhale and have no fear for the rest of the diver's life.
I could do it today as easily as I did 25 years ago...there is nothing to this skill.
Again, if someone has a lung disease, why are they diving or in this discussion ?

 

[Scubagolf]

I would be interested to know how many of the 41% fatalities were using air-integrated computers with an alarm setting for low gas. I am thinking not many, maybe none. Plenty of air integrated dive computers have alarm settings for low tank pressure alarm and a turn-around gas pressure. I know this is the opposite direction from better training and might encourage lazier divers, but like tail lights on cars and back-up alarms on construction equipment it would get somebody's attention.

I personally dive a non-integrated wrist computer with an SPG clipped off an O-ring, but I am pretty "anal" about checking my gauges.

 

[Ken Kurtis]

2. learn how to deal effectively with running out of air so that it is no big deal, just like many of us did for many decades.

I have always taken the later approach. I have always taught divers what to do when they are in an OOA situation. I have always stressed good watermanship and free diving skills along with the usual stuff.

Should we not give some thought to solving this on a skills basis rather than just on an avoidance basis?

My point is: Isn't this exactly what we've been doing for years and years???? Aren't we showing them the skills (octo, buddy-breathing, ESA, etc.)? But the skills apparently aren't working. Or they're not hearing the "Don't run out of air" message. or both.

Something in this teaching mix simply isn't working. Because if it was working, we won't see this many OOA fatalities. Essentially saying, "We'll just do a better job of doing what we've been doing" may not be the answer IMHO.

OOA is an easy thing to avoid and an easy thing to deal with. Most instructors, however, do not seem to be doing either, when they should be doing both.

I agree with THAT statement 100%.

- Ken

 

[AggieDiver]

Lamont, your last comment about newbie divers (and some not so newbies) is very true, and points to a much bigger problem in my mind that is likely to lead to more fatalities in the future. In an effort to promote the sport to a wider audience, the industry has gone away from the macho image of diving from the sea hunt days as a risky endeavour only undertaken by daredevils and towards a much simpler, safer, and less educationally intensive hobby. I know when I first got certified in 1988, I came out of the class with an extremely healthy respect for how many ways I could die underwater. I have never forgotten that I am swimming underwater with a life support system that could fail at any time. As a result, I don't do things like turn my tank off when I am in the water or take going OOA lightly, because I take the risk of death seriously. I have a very good set of instructors and a long and throrough class to thank for that.

I think the emphasis on easier/shorter courses and resort/discover scuba programs works against that attitude and puts the attitude in people's heads that scuba really isn't all that dangerous and the risk of dying or being seriously injured is really remote. The risk may be low and the chances may be remote, but they are that way because a lot of conscientious divers were trained to understand the risks and take them seriously over the years. Turning that effort around and convincing new prospective divers that the risks are minimal and they should just enjoy themselves and not worry about it has the potential to lead to exactly the kind to stupidity that you mentioned.

The bottom line is that DAN doesn't have a trigger category for "Diver Stupidity" in their system. So events where divers die with full tanks on their backs, operable regs not in their mouth, and with a weight belt still on their hips invariably get classified as some other cause or trigger, when the reality is that poor judgement, inattention to basic scuba principles, or plain old stupidity was the real bottom line cause that turned a normal dive into a fatal accident. Many of the OOA incidents likely came about through such a situation, and the reality is that you just can't train the idiot out of some people. The example given above about the guy who sucks his tank dry, the returns with his pony is a good one...when he invariably runs dry before he gets back one of these days and dies, his death will be categorized as involving OOA. But the reality is that he is an idiot who knows damn well that what he is doing isn't smart, but he is doing it anyway. No amount of additional training is going to fix a guy like that...so the best you can do is make sure he knows as much as possible about how to survive when he does run OOA.

 

[Thalassamania]

No Ken, this is what most of the industry has been paying lip service to whilst it cut the course content to the bone. Talk is cheap, actually taking the time to assure that all students have decent waterskills coming in and actually can buddy breathe, share an auxiliary, or make a comfortable free ascent under stressful circumstances is clealy NOT what most of the industry has been doing.


You will not that the areas of diving where training has not experience such shrinkage (e.g., the research community, WKKP, etc.) does not have this problem.

 

[AggieDiver]

OOA is an easy thing to avoid and an easy thing to deal with. Most instructors, however, do not seem to be doing either, when they should be doing both.

I agree with the 1st sentence, but disagree with the 2nd. We don't really know how well instructors are doing either or both. If there are 100 OOA incidents for every fatality, then clearly the instructors are doing a good job of teaching people to deal with them, since 99% survive. Also, it could be that instructors are doing all they can to teach people to avoid OOA incidents, and it is dive operators and fill operations that should be doing more to berate/punish/ban divers for showing up with an empty tank. We just really don't know the "why" or the "how many" when it comes to OOA incidents and those two things are important to understanding where the problem really lies.

 

[zamburinha]

I love this discussion. Quite apart from how to interpret the data from DAN, a lot of this could be rephrased as:

How to effectively teach OOG skills while emphasizing that, apart from equipment malfunction, it should not happen? The problem is that you deal with two extreme kind of divers:

-those that are likely to panic and need to be reassured that an OOG situation can be dealt with effectively and by extension is "no big deal"

and

-those that, if told that an OOG is not a big deal, will take that as a license to suck their tanks dry

Of course, most people fall in the middle. We are mildly apprehensive about running out of air and try to avoid it, but would be able to manage if such a situation were to occur. It makes sense that the training is geared towards the more reasonable middle ... the question is whether it is adequate for that. The lack of training on gas management is really inexcusable, especially in contrast to the coverage of DCS, which is a much smaller problem at the recreational level.

 

[Ken Kurtis]

The point of the discussion, however, is that Ken feels that if you learn how to not run out of air dealing with it will never be a problem . . .

Actually, that's not at all what I'm saying.

I'm saying we tend to not pay much attention to really focusing on and teaching not to run out of air. I'm saying that the various OOA options we give them are probably not very well-taught/practiced. I'm saying that this combination gives them a false sense of security that if they run out of air, eveything will be fine because they can handle it. The impression (I think) they're left with is that OOA is no big deal. But the data would seem to suggest otherwise.

I'm saying that we really, really, really need to change our emphasis on running out of air. It needs to NOT be acceptable, under any cirumstances. (For the record, this will exclude gear failure, but that's really, really, really rare. It's a straw man.) We need to spend a lot more time on gas managemement, checking air, leaving a good reserve, etc., etc.

I'm also saying do all the OOA drills and options but do them often enough, even it makes for a longer class, so they're actually good at it and there's muscle memory so if the situation arises, they can perform the skills properly.

But at thje same time, give them a REAL reading on the stats and point out the high percentage of fatalities thatstart with OOA so thjat maybe they have much more respect for the seriousness of running out of air and don't believe in the infallibility of the OOA options.

. . . while I am saying that no mater what you do going OOA has a certain level of inevitability . . .

I disagree quite strongly with "inevitability". That's almost like saying that it going to happen anyhow, so it's not that big a deal. I've made about 5000 dives and I've NEVER run out of air nor has anyone I've been diving with, in a class or recreationally.

and that if you know how to deal with it, then running out of air will not be a problem.

I don't want to sound too mean with this comment, but saying "running out of air will not be a problem" to me underscores the too cavalier attitude about this that we have in the industry.

If it really does account for 41% of the fatalities, it IS a problem and a big deal.

- Ken