Triggers of Dive Accidents

[1_T_Submariner]

Good disscussion! I've heard the stories of breathing tanks until they run out then pulling the reserve handle and making an ascent. But I've never done it.

I have had a SPG that stuck on me. I didn't blindly assume that I still had air. I checked my gauge a few times and with no movement we surfaced and I replaced it.

I don't think there is any excuse for running out of air using todays equipment in an OW NDL situation (I'm not trained beyond this to comment).

 

[davidbaraff]

Whatever the merits of such an approach may be, it's a violation of NAUI Standards ...

The NAUI policy, as stated on page 2.14 of the S&P, under the heading Supervision states that ...

No instructor shall knowingly permit any student to leave the immediate in-water training area without supervision or attendance of an instructor or certified assistant.

If an accident should occur, this instructor is wide-open to liability and sanction from NAUI for violating written standards.

If, after the students have completed the course curriculum satisfactorily, the instructor decided to do this, then I could see the value ... and he'd be covered. But it would have to be after the mandated five dives and all skills have been successfully completed.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I'm not arguing with you, as I've never opened a NAUI book. I do have a few questions:

1. Is watching right from the shore counted as leaving the immediate in-water training? It's not like they turn their backs and leave, saying "see ya..."

2. The previous weekend is a whole bunch of pool dives --- are any of those counted in the dives you're talking about?

3. The O/W weekend (e.g. in Monterey) is an orientation snorkel dive, (dive #1, full gear except without air tanks), then dives #2,#3, (end of first day), then #4 (second day) with #2,3,4 all on air of course. You're doing skills, navigation, etc.

The last dive is the students in their buddy teams, which is #5 in the sequence above, and is the second dive of the second day.

So you're saying there should have been one more dive in there to make this fully sanctioned, i.e. #5 not having instructors in the water right next to people?

 

[Ken Kurtis]

But it would have to be after the mandated five dives and all skills have been successfully completed.

Just to be clear, NAUI standards call for 5 scuba dives . . . OR . . . 1 skin dive and 4 scuba dives.

So if you've done a skin, you could do it on dive #5 if all other requisites have been met and the student is considered finished and certified.

- Ken

 

[Ken Kurtis]

I'm not arguing with you, as I've never opened a NAUI book. I do have a few questions:

Here are my answers for you. Bob may wish to jump in with a different take on things.

1. Is watching right from the shore counted as leaving the immediate in-water training?

Watching from shore is called "indirect" supervision. "Direct" supervision means being there in the water underwater (not on the surface) with you and able to respond to any problems you might encounter immediately.

It's not like they turn their backs and leave, saying "see ya..."

It's actually sort of the same. What's the practical difference between (1) sending you out on your own and watching from shore, or (2) starting the dive with you and leaving (and finishing up by watching you from shore)?

2. The previous weekend is a whole bunch of pool dives --- are any of those counted in the dives you're talking about?

No. Pool is confined water. Not-pool is open water. Apples and oranges. You can't substitute confined-water dives for open-water dives.

3. The O/W weekend (e.g. in Monterey) is an orientation snorkel dive, (dive #1, full gear except without air tanks), then dives #2,#3, (end of first day), then #4 (second day) with #2,3,4 all on air of course. You're doing skills, navigation, etc.

In a NAUI program, you can only count two scuba dives in any given day towards certification. You can do a skin and two scuba dives, but you cannot do three scuba dives and count the third dive. What you did was a skin and two scubas. The confusuon is that you're referring to the skin as dive #1. It is not. It's the skin dive. Doesn't really have a number (at least not to us dinosaurs).

The last dive is the students in their buddy teams, which is #5 in the sequence above, and is the second dive of the second day.

If you've sucessfully met all other requirements and been signed off (logbooks, other paperwork, etc.), and you've completed dive 3 & 4 on the second day, dive #5 on the second day as an on-your-own-with-buddy dive would be OK. (But that's not how you described it initially.)

Hope this helps.

- Ken

 

[davetowz]

The real answer is situational awareness. But I realize the majority of the instances have been noob OW divers, perhaps what should be taught is not OOA but I need air. Free flow, reg failure, etc... -vs- I ran my tanks dry. SA will cover down on monitoring of SPG and knowing when to turn back, the other thing... in rec diving... if someone gives the go up- thumb up sign. it means we are done, lets safely surface. Emphasis in training on almost all issues are a nuisance and only true OOA is an emergency and most of the times there is an easy in water solution to that. I would say the largest contributor to your 41% is lack of buddy awareness. ie... shiny object syndrome. All leading back to situational awareness... when you figure out how to instruct the masses on this one... Patent your method and I will read your book.
Dave.

 

[Diver0001]

I simply can't express how much I disagree with this. Running out of air at depth is not good, but it is a problem that can be solved easily through a calm and reasoned response that is entirely within your training. Teaching people that if they run out of air they will most likely die has the opposite effect. It teaches them to panic and do the exact thing that will in fact kill them--sprint to the surface while holding their breath.

I would agree with this general principle but I *do* have my doubts about the frame of mind someone has to be in for them to "forget" to check their air and run out at depth.

I would think if someone is busy enough and/or distracted enough to run out of air that they may not have the emotional capability to deliver a "calm and reasoned response" when the **** hits the fan. My assumption is that if someone's free attention is so used up that they let an OOA sneak up on them that they're probably already well out of their comfort zone and a bit overwhelmed *before* the emergency starts to unfold.

My approach to training for this is somewhat different. In the OW course I really hammer at "prevention is better than cure" and put emphasis on achieving a comfort zone where the A/B/C's feel natural (A/B/C is my short term for awareness of Air-supply, Buoyancy control and Communication...ie buddy contact... it's a simple "dip stick" method of knowing if someone feels comfortable and has their dive under control). My *bet* is that if someone has their A/B/C's covered that they'll simply never run out of air to begin with and if they do get low then they'll see it coming a mile away and be in a position to deliver a "calm and reasoned" response.

Although a certain bar of efficiency should be trained with things like AAS handovers so that all bases are covered, I don't think we should be training students to respond so much to sudden emergencies and to train them instead to have the presence of mind to see issues developing....and that means training them to think in terms of their A/B/C's.

R..

 

[TSandM]

Rob, that's a great post, and I'll refer folks to one of my favorite all-time ScubaBoard threads: "Managing Task Loading", started by Rob, and discussing in some detail the ABC concept.

 

[SCUBA482]

Wow! This thread has taken me three days to read all the posts and I've enjoyed the variety of input from everybody.

Ken, thanks for this meaningful thread that has stimulated us, and may have been a key to changing a few Instructors' styles and priorities. If as individuals or those with influence on others make some adjustments in our style then this may have been the thread of 2010. As for me, I know I've learned quite a bit!

I'll concede that my dive planning during my OW, and subsequent classes, meant very little to me at the time. I presume because it wasn't stressed to a point of understanding more than the "be on the boat with 500 psi" mantra. I have even gone back to look at my materials to confirm the quick glossing over on rule of thirds as cave or tech divers do with no such thorough explanation as to how to gas plan and execute. This thread has exposed me to Bob's (NWGrateful Diver) website and article on this issue. While I have never even come close to an OOA I believe I have lots of room for improvement over my current practices.

I've been an AI for almost a year now and refuse to progress forward until I learn more and get more experience. It is threads like this that motivate me to dig out my dive theory stuff and review SAC calculations and RVM and plan my dives a LOT better. This will translate into modeling the behaviour I will expect from my students in the future and ones I work with now under the Instructors I work with. I also believe that there is ALWAYS room in the class for much needed topics such as gas planning and management. Of course the OOA drills are an important point in the training as outlined by several others, but the main point of focus on this thread is GAS MANAGEMENT TEACHING TECHNIQUES & WHAT CAN WE DO TO INSTILL THIS IN THE NEW DIVERS?

I look forward to reading various methods others are using to bring the important topic into their classrooms.

 

[TSandM]

Scuba482, posts like yours make all the time we spend here on SB worthwhile.

 

[lamont]

I've been an AI for almost a year now and refuse to progress forward until I learn more and get more experience.

first, i wish more instructors and DMs had this attitude. +1 for you.

second, though, its a bit scary that you can get this far through the industry and not get exposed to information that should at least be taught to AOW divers. -1 for the scuba industry.