Triggers of Dive Accidents

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What a great thread. Thanks.

While teaching OOA contingencies may be a way of inferring that running out of air is ok, is there any statistic on how many divers survived OOA because of contingency training? I doubt it.

I'm not an instructor, so my thoughts here may be of limited value. However, it might be worthwhile to teach: "If you run out of air, you're going to die. You might try a CESA or to get air from your buddy; it can't hurt, but you will probably die. Therefore, we will learn and practice these."
 
Dick Vann, VP of DAN Research, presented some info (can't recall if it was a pre-workshop paper or at the workshop itself) where he and Petar Denoble looked at 900+ case studies of fatalities over a 10-year period. In a little less than half of those (350-ish), they were able to identify the triggering event that caused the accident and led to the fatality.

Inn 41% oof those cases, the trigger was . . . OUT OF AIR.

This got me to thinking.

If you're looking at something statistically, you'd assume there's a direct correlation to how often something occurs in the population vs. how often it occurs in whatever you're measuring. In other words, if 10% of divers are left-handed, you'd assume that 10% of the people who get bent are also left-handed. If the number is significantly higher (or lower) than 10%, then you'd wonder if left-handedness plays some factor in the bends.

In this instance, we see that 41% of the fatalities start because someone ran out of air. I do not for a minute believe that 41% of the total dives made end up in people running out of air.
Lets see, 900 cases, of that 350 were used to determine that 41% were triggered by OOA. By my calculation that is more like 16% with 61% of triggers unknown, unless you are allowed to cherry pick the data.

I'm not saying this is not a significant problem but, sensationalizing the findings like a third rate news broadcast does not help credibility.

In basic classes, I'm sure we all teach "Don't run out of air, don't run out of air, don't run out of air." But we follow that up with: "But if you do, there are some options." (And we go into combinations of octo, buddy-breathing, pony, free ascent, etc.) We present these options as not only resonable, not only as easy to learn (after, we teach it in a BASIC class) but we also imply, if not state directly, that they have a high incidence of success. We've just inadvertently told them "Don't run out of air but if you do, it's OK because here's how you can solve that probem."

Bad gas management is not the only reason a diver may run out of gas, and sending them down without any options other than bolting for the surface is, in my opinion, criminal.

I believe that anyone who can not be taught the difference between an unexpected emergency and an emergency that is caused by their own inattention to the gas that is allowing them to breathe underwater should not be given a c-card in the first place. DAN's information you cited could help reinforce the point.



I learned to dive on J-valves and running out of air was a normal occurrence and not a reason to panic. Today when a diver runs out of air it is probably their first time and it can go very bad. The reflex to constantly monitor the SPG needs to be ingrained into every diver in their OW class.

I look at my SPG all the time just because I can, 'cause I remember the thrill when I did not have one.


Bob
-------------------------------
I may be old, but I’m not dead yet.
 
More than probably the most intelligent thread likely to be.

One death contributed to by running out of gas due to the lax mindset that may stem from being able to roll into a gas station if you are fortunate can only be minimised it seems by pushing harsh reality rather than the soft forgiving approach that seems prevalent on this board.

A self sufficient mind that also includes buddy awareness applied to diving and comprehensive psyche man-management modules for students and instructors where ego and feelings are set aside so we can embrace inappropriate and harshly worded spectacularly stupid replys and have uncommon sense prevail so we can all go diving.

It's called LIFE.

MONITORING AIR IS THE START AND FINISH OF DIVING.
Equipment no matter how basic is just a means of using it.

Those that we let out of the house.

Plagiarism is apparently a sign of respect.:internet::baaa:
 
As we get more experience often we get better at using our gas and we understand how much we typically use so we're less likely to run out if we're diving well within limits. The trick there is well within limits. The corollary is as divers get more experience they may start to push the envelop. Deep dives, wreck dives, cave dives, etc all seem to be attractive which I suspect can lead to more OOA issues.

Most cave diving fatalities do ultimately result in an OOA, but the root cause is typically not directly related to mismanagement of gas as such (diving over training limits, failure to use a guideline, navigational errors, entanglement, etc).

The most likely divers to make mistakes in gas management which are the direct precipitating cause of the fatality are going to be intermediate level recreational divers (50-100 recreational dives) that have no gas training. Technical and cave divers get training in gas management drilled into them and don't typically make naive mistakes in gas management.

I'm also wondering what the OOA ratio between self catering divers and divers who go with a guide is?

Probably worse in the divers diving with a DM/guide. People who don't have a babysitter are forced into being responsible for themselves.
 
Inn 41% oof those cases, the trigger was . . . OUT OF AIR.

Yes, that is why my .signature line has a link to my rockbottom information.

Would it be better simply NOT to teach OOA options?

No, that's stupid.

In particular, you need to teach how to share gas and practice that. A free flow can drain your tank at depth in a minute, and divers need to be able to solve that problem underwater without having to CESA to the surface (and risk blowing their lungs).

I'll agree that the focus needs to be on teaching gas management and gas sharing and away from teaching bolt-to-the-surface CESAs.
 
I'm not sure about the actual statistics cited but I do agree with the basic premise that running out of air is made to seem less than the big deal that it is. Teaching gas management would be the ultimate cure (hopefully) but the current mindset is troubling.

Run out of air and you can either go to your buddies octo (if you can actually find your buddy) or you can do a CESA. Doing either of those, particularly the buddy's octo choice and you are probably praised for keeping your head rather than berated for running out of air in the first place (as should be done).

The marketing of SCUBA is the problem. That's the only reason for these contortions of logic. In climbing, which isn't marketed as being for everyone under the sun, no one would down play tying the knot that attaches the rope to your harness by saying that your buddy will catch the mistake or that someone else or some piece of equipment will save you from your inattentiveness. Virtually no one therefore forgets to properly tie that knot.

Quit marketing SCUBA as a brainless activity and you won't have these problems. Courses would then be through but people drawn to SCUBA in the first place would be more capable.

Many climbers have no formal training and yet there aren't the kind of mindless accidents that occur in tropical resorts because everyone drawn to the sport intuitively knows that it can be deadly and they are responsible for themselves.

If that were the case with scuba we wouldn't have any of these problems.
 
There are a lot of interesting points made here. Here is my 999 cents.

Perhaps I am off the mark, but, I see a correlation between the way a lot of divers approach gas management and the way many approach other safety guidelines/responsibilities in general. Too many divers AND dive leaders look at responsible/reasonable decisions and preparedness as being "overly conservative" or "uneccessarily anal." I have been chastised and chided on a great number of boats for having basic safety equipement, properly stowed and clipped, not an entanglement risk. I have been berated for my choice to use the rule of thirds for gas management and for choosing not to dive when the plan presented exceeded my training, experience, equipment, or comfort level. I am not dissuaded by this but many a companion has been influenced by the hazing they have experienced and witnessed.

Items as simple as a snorkel, inflatable surface marker, safety reel, cutting tool, audible signal, and/or a light have brought laughter and unending chastising such as "bringing the kitchen sink" and "diving like a dinosaur" among many other colorful comments. I have even had dive leaders and Captains single me out as a "bad" example to other divers and overly equipped. Dare I even mention that a Captain once forbid me from taking and using a pony bottle on a dive planned to 120ft. in a 2-3 knot current. I chose not to go on the boat. They should see me when I am wreck diving or doing deep dives in North Caroline :)

As well, I am constistently astounded at the number of divers and dive guides that continue to rely on the dive going perfectly, relying on their familiarity with a site and their (over) confidence in their ability to address any problems for the entire group (even when they are not properly equipped nor mindful of their charges). In addition, I often observe dive leaders continue the dive until the first diver reaches 1000 psi (or frequently less) before turning the dive. This is even, frequently, the briefed procedure. Often this results in divers needing to share air to complete their safety stops and the dive leader often chastises the divers for "using their air too quickly" on the return to the exit point, not having any awareness that their plan and execution of the dive likely contributed to the result.

I have been in groups where the dive leader directs their charges to enter a cavern, cave, or wreck, for which none of the other divers have had training or are equipped, and sometimes when they had less than half their original gas remaining upon entering the overhead environment. Being unfamiliar with the site, fearing losing the dive leader, and having the guide signal adamantly and aggressively that they must enter the overhead environment, even divers with good sense often acquiesce.

Consistently, I witness dive leaders, including instructors in the midst of training, "role modeling" by entering dives as the dive leader with a used tank less than half full and making the turn in the dive with less than 1/4 of the air with which they began the dive. Frequently dive leaders signal divers to continue on with the group in a direction away from the exit of the dive even when their guided divers have indicated that not only have they reached the 1000 psi that was briefed as the turn pressure but may have 600-800 psi or less.

Who hasn't seen a dive leader ignore their own or one of their divers' malfunctioning regulators or BCD's and proceed with the dive with the faulty equipment. Who hasn't seen a diver, and dare I even say, a dive leader put another diver who is low on gas on their alternate and continue with the dive plan rather than safely ascending and ending the dive when the conditions and the site would appropriately allow the immediate ascent.

I personally don't think that teaching OOA emergency skills is what is telling divers it is ok to run OOA.

Actions speak louder than words and I think the example that has become the norm in many, not all, diving environments is what is "telling" divers it is ok to run out of air. Better yet, I think what divers hear, see, and experience "shows" them that decisions and actions like those above which increase their risks of and likelyhood of experienceing an OOA emergency are not only acceptible but common practice. These "examples" demonstrate that these are the norms and the prepared, well equipped diver adhering to a safer, responsible, and conservative plan is the "odd man out." Just check out the online posts. Operators that adhere to safer more conservative guidelines and practices are consistently flamed for restricting divers freedoms and personal choices.

I must be an old fogy but I was taught and understood the meaning of emergency skills and I was taught contingency planning. I started diving in the North East and am very appreciative of the training and mentoring that I received from excellent role models, both professional and recreational. This is not to say I never saw bad examples there. However, since then I have taught and been diving in more than six states and more than six countries. Unfortunately, as noted above my experiences over the last 16 years or so, after leaving the North East, have demonstrated to me that there are far more risk takers and makers than there are risk managers.

Can't remember all the details, but, one of the main dive mags recently featured an editorial about "Risk Seekers." The interesting part is most divers have a little risk seeking in them but some like to recognize the risks and reasonably manage them. Others seem to want to fly in the face of risk, carelessly tempting fate, despite the consequences to themselves or others. I don't see this behavior that seems to be an increasing trend being exclusive to SCUBA diving.
 
I don't want my reply to come off as sounding nasty because that's not the intent. But . . .



How does having a pony bottle prevent them from running out of air in their main tank?

And if they run out in their main, and switch to the pony (I'm assuming 13cf or so), what's to stop them from thinking of the pony as a dive time extender and then running THAT one down to zero?

I believe what your solution says (unintended consequence) is that it's OK to run out of air. Because the reason you'd use a pony bottle is if you run out of air. If you don't run out of air, you're likely not to need the pony.

Also don't lose sight of the fact that running out of air is nothing new. Divers have been doing it since the sport got started. Why do you think they invented J valves????

- Ken


What is to stop them from running down the pony bottle too? That is ridiculous! It gives them a second chance to survive if they run down the main tank. Of course training should be better, but training is getting LESS intensive not more intensive.

We are not going to teach people what they realy need to know in the typical weekend scuba class and we are not going to teach them sufficient GOOD judgement. Pulling the reserve chute, (I mean pony bottle) should be enough to get any sane person moving toward the surface. It is as simple as that.

This is not theoretical, this is a simple, practical, inexpensive, robust means to reduce out of air deaths.

As for the idea of plling people's certification card for running low 2 times.... that is ridiculously impractical... I thought you were making a joke.


Lastly, the current recreational training that relies upon your buddy to save you is very weak. If a diver is TOO STUPID to check his own air supply, what makes us think he is going to check his buddy's supply? If a diver is SO STUPID to run out of air at depth, is it not a ridiculous ASSUMPTION that his buddy (if he is still there) will not also have run his tank so low that he is unable to share air during the ascent? This type of safety system is completely impractical for the type of diver(s) who tend to run out of air.
 
I can't see that if someone just risked their life by running out of air how taking away an idiots certification card would be any motivation. It would seem someone's life is a bit more motivation than loosing a certification card.

More training and education is always good.

Training people to check their air frequently and on every dive should be drilled into a new diver and they should not be certified until they accomplish this. I am always checking my air and find it incredible that everyone does not check regularly and often.

The most important thing in diving is your brain. What lead up to these people to running out of air? Training, not checking gauges, equipment, or a new diver over burdened with the new experience, not planning the dive, not understanding the inherent hazards of diving, a build up to panic quick/shallow breathing.

I just had an experience with a diver that ran out of air. It was an unbelievable.

You can find it under "Near Misses and Lessons Learned" my thread is "New/Inexperienced Diver Out of Air".
 
I think the problem stems from how air management is approached in OW class ... I won't say "taught", because I don't think it is taught. Air management is the single most important thing that the agencies steadfastly refuse to teach, in fact. But when I read about this issue, my friend Uncle Pug's gentle admonishment really comes to mind ...

"You need to rethink your approach to that dive."

So what do they "teach" in OW ... for that matter, at all levels of recreational diving?

"Check your gauge every few minutes."
"End the dive with 500 psi."

Those are good rules of thumb ... but the message they send is that air management is a reactive transaction ... essentially that you swim around until your gauge reaches a certain point, then you abort your dive. It's the wrong approach.

Air management SHOULD be taught as a proactive transaction ... something that's part of your dive plan. We all learn "Plan your dive and dive your plan" from the very beginning of our training. But how many people really do? Therein lies the problem ... a lack of proper planning. Train people from the outset that gas management is an essential part of your dive plan, and that you should never get in the water without KNOWING ... because you planned for it ... that you have enough air for the dive you're planning to do.

Take that approach and the problem will resolve itself.

The agencies generally take the approach that proper air management is too hard for the OW student. I disagree. I've been teaching this subject in free seminars for several years now, and not one person attending has ever come up afterward and told me they didn't get it.

The solution is to turn around the notion of thinking about how much gas you have left AFTER the dive ... who cares once you've surfaced how much air's in your tank anyway ... and start teaching people to think about how much gas they have before they ever get in the water.

The agencies encourage OOA in a number of ways ... not least is by pushing people to sign up for AOW straight out of OW class. Are you kidding me? Why do the vast majority of divers sign up for AOW? It's because they want to go deep! They want a card that will let them go do that 100-foot dive. Never mind that they're using a rental tank that's more appropriate for holding your beer than the air that's going to keep you alive. Never mind that they're so new they have no buoyancy control skills, that their gas consumption is through the roof, and that they have little bandwidth to think about two things at the same time while they're diving. They get through nine dives total and are the proud holders of a card that says they're OK to dive deep ... and they're patently unprepared for it. They haven't a clue how much air they need for that dive ... because their instructor, and the agency that instructor represents, failed to teach them that information. In fact, failed to even bother telling them it's important.

They need to rethink their approach to that dive. BEFORE you go deep, you should have learned how to measure your consumption rate, and how to use that information to calculate how much gas you'll need for that dive. For most new divers, the inescapable conclusion would be that if you do, in fact, want to end your dive with a decent reserve ... or consider that your buddy might need to share your air at some point ... the tank you're bringing on that dive is too small.

Teach that from the outset and that 41% number will drop ... I guarantee it ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 

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